Windows 7 Declares War on GRUB

I feel your pain and decided to backup mint and do the windows updates and reinstall

I doubt very much if MS give a damn about anything else but Windows. I don't think they'd deliberately set out to trash grub, they just do whatever suits them without any consideration for the consequences.

Interesting thought ... If you installed Win7 as a dual boot on a machine that previously only had Linux, and it wrecked your Linux installation, would you have a case for claiming damages from MS in a civil action?

This post has been removed by a moderator.

@AndyPagin - I agree, it is very doubtful that this is deliberately aimed at GRUB, the most likely explanation is that they are doing what they want to what they consider to be the "correct" configuration, without paying any attention to what the real configuration is, and without the slightest concern about the possible consequences for the user. In fact I have seen something very similar happen once before, with Vista. In that case at least Windows Update seemed to check and reported "Update Failed" if GRUB was installed in the MBR, without scribbling on it. Interesting thought about possibly suing them...

@fluffymonkey - Oh yeah, you're probably right, why didn't I think of that? If it isn't happening to you, then it is certainly not a problem for anyone else! Never mind that it ONLY happens when I boot Win7, as I said in the post; never mind that I have multiple copies of Linux in other partitions, and it NEVER happens when I boot any of them, as I said in the post; never mind that I had the multi-boot configured and I booted into Windows numerous times without problem before Windows Update ran, as I mentioned in the post; Yes indeed, it almost certainly is the "hard drive drivers" causing this problem, and as long as I keep the system configured with Windows only, and don't try to pollute it with Linux, those nasty little driver rascals will keep quiet and not corrupt the MBR. Great thinking, thanks for the help! Oh, and by the way, I would appreciate it if you would keep the profanity out of comments to my blog in the future.

Thanks for reading and commenting.

jw

Ignoring your hysterical headline (unless you can actually prove what you claim, which would surprise me), there seem to have been problems with GRUB and Windows for some time. Don't know if this, for example, helps (it's from 2008)
http://xubuntu.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/howto-fixing-grub-after-a-windows-installation-and-fixing-the-grub-menu/
but I usually find it's better to Google these things beforehand. It saves a lot of pain in the long run.

Otherwise, it's obviously sensible when starting a new Windows machine to go to Windows Update and make sure you have all the updates installed, as well as all the crapware removed, so you can do a backup and avoid the misery of having to do the whole thing again. I really can't imagine why anyone would start installing openSuSE before doing that.

While I think that it's VERY convenient that the windows 7 BCD clobbers any other bootloader you have on your system (windows is very jealous of it's users) i don't think that this is as much against linux as it is against the TDSS virus. The TDSS virus modifies the bootloader and loads it's code on boot from a hidden partition on the hard drive. While there are a few tools that can remove it, detecting a problem with the bootloader and replacing it with a clean copy is really the best fix. Updates are meant to keep up with threats like this and patch them as easily and cheaply as possible. I doubt if M$ cares if it's grub it's paving or a wonky evil virus. I Would suggest removing win7 all together and running just linux.

as a side note, you could probably solve this issue by installing a fantastic utility called easybcd. for some reason this replacement bootloader has never been replaced on my systems *knock on wood!*

I was able to get around this on another machine by simply creating serperate partitions and disabling the "LAN boot" in the bios.

@Jack,

Perhaps you should have read the post at your link before gracing us with such a condescending response, Jack. It deals with a specific scenario: i.e., installing Windows *after* you've installed Linux or other operating systems. And yes, that is a well-known problem that is caused by Microsoft's overweening arrogance and/or incompetence.

This is different, however. J. A. already had Windows (installed first) and Linux working side-by-side. Then a Windows Update seems to have cocked it all up for absolutely no reason whatsoever. It's bad enough that Microsoft disables other OS's when installing a new copy of Windows, but to such a thing for a mere update? What possible reason could they have to MBR under that circumstance?



> it's obviously sensible when starting a new Windows machine to go to Windows
> Update and make sure you have all the updates installed... [blah, blah]

Totally irrelevant. Windows has no business messing about with the MBR during an update, full stop. And even if you had some kind of point here, Microsoft releases new "updates" to Windows every month. Are they allowed to screw up other OS's every month, too?

In short, if you don't know what you're talking about - which you obviously don't in this case - you'd be best advised to keep quiet.

I wonder if I'm seeing consequences of what you're experiencing.
I bought a really great--from a hardware standpoint--laptop at a really good price. Of course, Win7 Home Premium was installed. My intent was to make a dual-boot machine, since having Win7 might come in handy (like when my brainwashed-by-their-father grandchildren come over).
I got a "free" DVD with a Linux magazine I bought, which had Mint 10 on it. Popped it in the DVD drive, answered all the questions, rebooted, and lo and behold, there's the dual-boot screen...which just happens to state at the very top "GNU GRUB BOOTLOADER v.1.98+..."
Mint 10 will not load. I get trapped in an endless loop of being asked for my password. Tried changing password in the Terminal; that didn't work. What does work is that Windows boots up, when selected. So now I've got a Windows machine with half the disk space that I had when new (I can't figure out how,or even if I can use my "free" disk to undo or redo things).
I KNEW that screwing around with Windows was a mistake. And oh, by the way, whenever I get a snoopgram from Microsoft asking if they can update my computer, I automatically jump for the "No; HELL no!" button.
The only reason I figure most people stick with Microsoft is that they simply do not know or will not acknowledge that there's a better way.
Warmest regards...

I know it's always tempting to call conspiracy over cockup, but I think this is a problem caused by the way Windows is handling the Boot Configuration Data (BCD) store, to do with what partitions have drive letters, what partitions are marked as active and what partitions are mounted; Windows needs to be able to write to the BCD for situations like Bitlocker-encrypted drives. If you're seeing an error code when the installation fails (there's usually one) that will tell you the exact problem; I have links to several not dissimilar issues with SP1 and GRUB (I'll pop them in a second comment in case it triggers the spam filter)
M

SP1 fails - from the Microsoft social site, rather like the old newsgroups - monitored by Microsoft: http://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/w7itproinstall/thread/f955a5ff-3838-4e02-9d44-e698e1ae0346
SP1 problems - from the Microsoft Answers site, a forum which I can't really distinguish from the social site ;-)
http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_other-windows_update/windows-7-sp1-0x800f0a12-error-code/a584d276-a773-4917-b947-134d5330b825
SP1 and error 0x800f0a12 - from the blog of a Microsoft support engineer who specialises in servicing
http://blogs.technet.com/b/joscon/archive/2011/02/17/windows-7-2008-r2-service-pack-1-fails-with-0x800f0a12.aspx

M

incidentally, @BrownieBoy - it's always best to treat a Windows service pack as being very similar to an OS install; service packs service parts of the OS not touched except in service packs (pardon how circular that sounds - it helps to think of the OS state and the way OS installs and service packs affect it as state machines; monthly updates don't get to change as much). Unlike a monthly update, a service pack is very likely to need to work on the system partition, BCD and other boot-related settings. If the install doesn't complete it should be resetting things to where they were, but if it's not that sounds exactly like a bug to me - I'd suggest reporting it to the Windows team so they have an incentive to add the scenario to their test setups (if you have a commercial customer with a PSS account, that's going to be your most fruitful avenue for getting a fix rather than a vent).
M

I felt your pain recently myself,with my Xubuntu 10.10 being taken out by W7 Pro SP1 and IE9 update. I took the opportunity to do a rollback/recovery and start again with W7 and then installed Xubuntu 11.04 64 bit. It works great on my Acer laptop (1.4GHz + 4 Gb RAM). Even though I was able to fix Microsoft's mistake I think it is time that Microsoft started to realise that they do not have the right to wipe my installation with their sloppy practices, I only have M$ on this laptop because I can't get one without a M$ system pre-installed. I have 7 months till the warranty runs out and then it will be a "Linux only" laptop. If I have to pay the Microsoft tax they should at least ensure that I can use my machine as I need to. Upgrading Windows with a service pack is no excuse to fsck with my configuration.

Hmmm.
Personally - I value my time very much - and that's why I don't bother with installing multiple OS'es anymore.
I simply run my favorite Linux distro and then run ms shit in Virtual Box 4.0. this way OS'es are completely decoupled and image can be reused as many times as you want it.
Simply make Windows full screen - nobody will know the difference, -any modern laptop has enough firepower so this would work without a hitch.

I was able to "work around" this problem (if you want to call it that), by reinstalling Windows 7 from scratch, which of course installed the Windows bootloader, and then letting it go through all of the updates before reinstalling Linux and GRUB. I have said this before, but I will say it again, loud and clear, the Windows Update process is the most stupid, mindless, idiotic, time-wasting bunch of garbage imaginable. Good God. Install Windows 7 from scratch, then it says there are 50 "Important" updates to install. That takes an hour or so. Reboot. Then it says there are six "Important" updates to install. That takes another 20 minutes. Reboot. Then it (FINALLY) says that Service Pack 1 is ready to install. That takes well over an hour, and Microsoft particularly distinguishes themselves by proving that they don't know how to count - the download status starts at 31% complete, but then doesn't move for 10 or 15 minutes while the actual download catches up to that, I suppose. The download status then moves in spastic jumps until it finally finishes, using a good half an hour to download about 60MB of data? I can guarantee that the computer and my internet connection can download that much data in a few seconds... Anyway, after an hour or more of bludering about, SP1 is done, then Reboot. Then it wants to install EVEN MORE updates?

Congratulations Microsoft, the stupidity of your operating system is exceeded only by the unbelieveable stupidity of your update processing.

jw

Oh, and a couple of other random comments/answers:

- Why didn't I make a backup? Because as soon as the class I am attending next week is over, I will wipe the Windows garbage off of this computer, and bid it good riddance as usual.

- Will I report this "bug" to Microsoft so that they can "improve" their product? Yeah, right, like that is going to produce a lot of results. I reported this bug to a dead tree stump in my back yard the other day, and I am quite certain that will produce absolutely the same result that trying to report it to Microsoft would produce, and with a lot less grief and aggravation in the process.

@BrownieBoy - I would strongly recommend that you consider taking my approach to Schofield - I absolutely categorically ignore anything and everything he writes, whether it be blog posts or comments to other blogs, including my own. There is no content of any significance or value, and trying to engage in dialog is a waste of time.

jw

Been there, done that. I have a Samsung netbook which comes with three primary partitions already occupied. One hidden system drive which also serves as the boot drive as far as I can tell, one Windows 7 drive and one hidden drive with the re-installation and repair programmes.

So the first thing required is to shrink the C partition to make space for Windows XP and Linux Distros in an extended partition, time consuming but not a problem.

However the pain came when I installed Linux and could not boot anything. I don't remember exactly how I recovered but but probably using 'Grub for Dos' to get into the system and then by setting up the boot sequence in Windows 7 using EasyBCD.

The end result now is that the computer initialises with the Windows boot loader with three entries, Windows 7, Windows XP and Linux. Selecting Linux passes control to Grub(2) from where the various Linux Distros can be selected and booted. However, selecting Window takes me back to the Windows boot loader......

I have subsequently experienced several hiccups when the Grub for Dos screen appears (!) but I have not since been locked out again. I cannot explain the logic of any of this as I do not select either the extended partition or the relevant Linux partition(s) for Gub(2).

It's a puzzle, but so long as it works!

I did get myself in a mess with Suse, which does not use Grub2, but that's another story.

Some Windows 7 computers can repair the boot loader automatically. The same can be achieved from an installation disk, if you have one. If not a repair disk ISO can be downloaded free from Microsoft.

First of all, you think HP would provide you support if you loaded Linux on the laptop? Why not install your crappy Linux OS in a VM and use it from there? Anybody wasting time to partition and install it doesn't have a clue.

@ Andre

That would completely negate half of the advantages of actually using Linux, seeing as you then have to use the crappy host OS all the time, put up with its slow boot times, poor updating procedures and degradation over time. Secondly, I don't see how HP come into the equation at all, seeing as we are talking about a pure software issue here.

I agree with the VM principle, but obviously JW would be better off using the Linux OS as host.

I have ALWAYS said that if it weren't for the tremendous entertainment value they (sic) provide, Microsoft would have no value whatever. I don't watch TV ("telly', to all you non-colonials), because just reading the comments to informative blogs of yours like this, JAW, is much more entertaining. Keep up the good work.
Warmest regards...

Jamie:

Seen this before, too. We've never found a solution that works permanently, because there are always Windows updates coming out that seem to mess up the bootloader, just as you are seeing. We've ended up using Linux as the primary OS, and running Windoze in a VirtualBox VM. This keeps Windows in its own environment and keeps it from messing things up.

"I have said this before, but I will say it again, loud and clear, the Windows Update process is the most stupid, mindless, idiotic, time-wasting bunch of garbage imaginable."

I couldn't agree more. When installing a fresh copy of Windows 7, it takes about 5 reboots (and I'm not exaggerating one bit) to get it fully updated. The first 2 reboots are back to back. It is actually WORSE than XP (with SP3) is, which requires only 2-3 reboots overall, in most cases. Unfortunately for normal Windows users, they are used to this behaviour and know no other. I can't count how many users of Windows I have heard grumbling about the updates over the years, especially since Windows 7 came out. And non-stop grumbling about how Windows forces the user to install the updates when simply shutting down (where XP has an option to shut down without installing updates). I've heard so many complaints about this from laptop users that are shutting down for the day to go home, and have to sit around and wait for the updates. In most cases they can't simply undock the laptop and close the lid because the default Windows power setting will suspend the laptop and they will have to wait for the updates to finish after the system is awaken from suspend mode. There could be a workaround for this to allow a direct shutdown, but we've never had the time to look up how. For those of us that use a real operating system like GNU/Linux, we realize that other operating systems besides Windows are far better at handling patching and rebooting. I get asked a lot about what OS I use from regular users, and I simply state that it's GNU/Linux and NOT Windows.

@apexwm,

I've just built a new home desktop PC, so have installed Win 7 several times, both natively and under VirtualBox, during the last week. I actually found the install process to be much better than I remember XP's being. It went a lot quicker too, although that may be in part because of the new hardware (SSD etc.) I didn't count how many reboots, but as they didn't actually require my attendance, they didn't bother me. (I just read the paper!)

Of course, it still overwrites the MBR every time you install it. How the European Commission hasn't investigated this so far, I don't know. Microsoft is *literally* wiping out the competition this time! Still, it's easy enough to fix if you have an Ubuntu liveCD to hand. I made sure that installed SP1 and all further updates, including IE9, before using the LiveCD to restore Grub to the MBR. I'll watch out for any future Windows updates messing things up, as per JW's original complaint, but I've never seen that problem myself.

As an aside, the out of the box experience between a freshly installed Windows 7 and a freshly installed Unbuntu 11.04 was striking. For Ubuntu, everything worked first time. I got a prompt to install the Restricted Drivers for my ATI card, but even without that, my widescreen monitor still worked as its full resolution (1680 x 1050). Hell, I could even browse the web from the LiveCD while Ubuntu was installing!

Windows 7, on the other hand, couldn't connect to the internet after it had finished installing. I had to fish out the install CD supplied with the motherboard (a new P67 Sandy Bridge model). Only after I'd installed the necessary drivers from that, taking care to deselect the crapware that it wanted to install, could I get a connection. I then had to manually download and the ATI drivers for Windows 7 to get the full resolution on my monitor.

I'm glad I came across this thread before I hit the go button on W7 SP1...

I have a laptop with triple-boot - the bootloader is GRUB, which lets me choose between Linux Mint and Windows; choosing Windows in turn lets me pick either Vista or Windows 7.

What would be the best preparation to make before embarking on a W7 SP1 update? Is there any way of "backing up" the MBR or other parts of the hard drive to minimise the time it will take me to recover if the W7 SP1 update screws things up?

Any clever tips most welcome!

@201772 - It is unlikely that this problem will happen on your system, I assume that it is relatively rare or we would have heard a lot more shouting about it already. I don't know yet what it is about the dm1-3105ez hardware/software/configuration that is triggering this, but I have just installed Win7 SP1 on my Samsung NF310, which multi-boots with pretty much the same variety of Linux distributions as the HP, and it did not happen on that one.

The MBR can be copied and restored fairly easily, just "dd" the first 512 byte block from disk; google for detailed instructions, it has been written up a lot of times. What I prefer to do is keep a Live USB of whatever my boot distribution is, and if I need to I can boot that and restore the MBR from it fairly easily because I still prefer Legacy GRUB. I assume the same could be done with GRUB 2.

Good luck.

jw

How to restore the MBR for Grub 2:

http://maketecheasier.com/restore-grub-2-as-the-main-bootloader/2010/05/05

You'll need a LiveCD or USB install of a Linux that uses Grub 2. For Ubuntu, that's the Koala (9.10) or higher.

Great post. Completely echoes my experience of Windows 7 as well - I thankfully didn't pay for it, but used the trial version just before 7 was released as a back-up to our otherwise windows-free house. To be fair, I probably didn't give it enough harddisk space to test it properly, but my goodness those damn updates drove me crazy! I won't describe the profanities when I wanted to shut down windows to get back into Ubuntu, and didn't notice it had sneakily changed the shutdown button to 'shutdown and install updates'. 3 minutes of tapping and getting more impatient with it. It made me realise that deep down, Win 7 is still very similar to Win NT, just with a make-over to make it shiny-looking on the outside!

Anyway, we are now Windows free!

I like the idea of running windows in a VM - that sounds quite sensible - keeping it from where it can be let loose on the hardware!

Sounds pretty maddening. I run Ubuntu on a new desktop, and Linux Mint 10 on a Toshiba laptop (both dual-boot with Windows 7). I use EasyBCD on both to manage bootloading. It's been very reliable---I've escaped the issues that have plagued you, even with all of Microsoft's updates and service packs. I don't know why one particular Linux distro might cause booting problems where another wouldn't, but one never knows.

BrownieBoy :

"I didn't count how many reboots, but as they didn't actually require my attendance, they didn't bother me. (I just read the paper!)"

You may want to check that your PC is configured to download and install Windows updates automatically. It almost sounds like it is not downloading them or attempting to install. Yes, the Windows installation requires a couple of reboots, but I was mainly talking about the reboots necessary for the updates to finish and get the system completely up to date with the latest patchlevel. By default, updates will download but will not install until the reboot takes place. This is generally seen with the exclamation point next to the "Restart" or "Shutdown" button.

Based on all of the feedback, it is still a problem with Windows blowing away Grub. I've set up XP VMs (you really don't need Win7 for a VM unless you need the new interface) which run very well even on older hardware like a Pentium 4, in VirtualBox, provided that you do not need any hardware acceleration like graphics. The VM can be squeezed down to use 192 MB of virtual RAM and 5-7 GB of disk.

@BrownieBoy

> Perhaps you should have read the post at your link before gracing us with
> such a condescending response, Jack. It deals with a specific scenario: i.e.,
> installing Windows *after* you've installed Linux or other operating systems.

Perhaps you should have read the post at your link before gracing us with such a condescending response, Brownie Boy. It deals with a specific scenario: i.e., installing Linux on a new PC that, the post says, "came with Windows 7 Home Premium".

> @BrownieBoy - I would strongly recommend that you consider taking my approach
> to Schofield - I absolutely categorically ignore anything and everything he writes

It would be much better for everyone if he did, but Brownie Boy doesn't appear to have much of a life apart from the fun he gets from insulting me. Sad, I know.

@Jack,

Sorry, you've lost me. Neither your link nor mine makes mention of a PC that "came with Windows 7 Home Premium". JW's post *does* say that, which only confirms my point and your mistake: i.e., it's a completely different scenario.

Oh, and contradicting somebody on something doesn't count as "insulting" them, although it's revealing that you should think that it does.

@BrownieBoy

> Neither your link nor mine makes mention of a PC that "came with
> Windows 7 Home Premium". JW's post *does* say that,

Ah, I see I should have been clearer. I was merely trying to make the point that there were known problems, as easily shown by Google.

> contradicting somebody on something doesn't count as "insulting" them

I may be out of touch with your current approach. I stopped reading your comments years ago.

@ Jack S. "@BrownieBoy - I would strongly recommend that you consider taking my approach
to Schofield - I absolutely categorically ignore anything and everything he writes"

You've lost me too. BrownieBoy did not say this.

Any chance we can refrain from the personal attacks, after all there's a common link between us that we all are interested in technological advances and the quirks of technology - its problems and its solutions. Constructive comments about the issue in hand. Whether it's a pro Linux, or Pro Microsoft stance, there are always constructive methods to arguing failures in both. Stating you ignore someone's comments, they are all round about ways of insulting people. Let's try and keep it on topic, constructive and interesting. I'm really bored reading insults (and assume other readers are too). (no need to reply)

"Interesting thought ... If you installed Win7 as a dual boot on a machine that previously only had Linux, and it wrecked your Linux installation, would you have a case for claiming damages from MS in a civil action?"

I did indeed run into this exact scenario. Win7 wiped out my OpenSuse operating system. I don't know anything about anyone else out there - and I am no legal expert.... but if I heard rumor that such a lawsuit existed as a class action suit - I, along with all the funds I could muster, would certainly jump on board.

As far as reinstall thing grub, grad an alt install linux distro, escape after loading and go down to install grub. auto detect os installed. no fuss and easy fix. just a thought.

Plus you think this is bad? Try working with EFI and doing all this. You learn tricks quick. Again sorry for my spelling but just grab and Alternative Install disk for any newer Linux distribution and after loading into it, escape the normal install processes and select the GRUB installation area. Works with most Ubuntu disks i.e., and from there it auto detects the installed operating systems. Saves time and energy and never get locked out. The windows boot manager is very intrusive in my opinion and not always easy to manage, but GRUB is. This coming from someone who just spent the last twelve hours messing with EFI, rEFIT, GRUB, and Windows boot manager. In all OSX, Linux, XP, and 7.

I had no problem with this type of setup. I bought a new hard drive, installed windows 7 on it, two versions in two partitions, then installed Ubuntu (which has grub2). I have the Grub startup screen with Ubuntu and windows 7 options, If I select windows 7 I have another menu with two options windows 7 home or windows 7 ultimate. I normally use the ultimate. It has been running like this for a year or more. I never had to touch grub or the windows MBR, as long as I don't mind having the nested boot menus. I have installed all of the updates that came along, at least in the windows 7 ultimate version, no startup problems to date.

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that Windows 7 was officially "dual boot friendly" I can't seem to find an article or official announcement though...