Those two companies were among the several named as potential acquisition targets for Oracle, during the third week of the Justice Department's antitrust trial against the software company and its proposed takeover of rival PeopleSoft. Other potential candidates included Lawson Software and J.D. Edwards.
"Tom Siebel came to my house and tried to sell me Siebel," Ellison said, adding that he would put the company as his second choice if Oracle is unsuccessful in its bid for PeopleSoft.
"We thing (PeopleSoft has) a good engineering team. They have a got a large customer base, a larger and more important customer base than our second choice, which would be Siebel," said Ellison.
Industry watchers have repeatedly asked Oracle whether it would be interested in acquiring software maker BEA. Oracle has said that in addition to PeopleSoft -- or perhaps as an alternative -- it has considered acquiring companies in other markets, including BEA.
Talk of potential Oracle acquisition targets surfaced in videotaped depositions of Ellison and Jeff Henley, Oracle's chief financial officer, during the trial in US District Court here. Also during the trial, an Oracle document referenced in court included a list of potential acquisitions the company was toying with back in April last year.
The list, presented to Oracle's board during an April 2003 meeting, named these companies as potential acquisition targets: BEA Systems, Sybase, Business Objects, J.D. Edwards, PeopleSoft, Lawson Software, Cerner and SCT Corp.
During his deposition, Ellison confirmed that Safra Catz, Oracle co-president, had called J.D. Edwards about a possible acquisition prior to PeopleSoft's announcing its plans to acquire the mid-market player. But J.D. Edwards never returned Catz's call.
Oracle felt J.D. Edwards would lend scale to its operations, but in the end it was less attractive than a PeopleSoft acquisition, Ellison said.
"A lot of their customers were off support, in other words, J.D. Edwards' technology was so old people had stopped paying support. They were kind of running the J.D. Edwards' stuff, but had no plans to ever… keep it current," Ellison said.
As early as spring last year, Oracle also considered Lawson Software, according to a videotaped deposition of Henley.
The Justice Department is trying to derail Oracle's bid to buy a reluctant PeopleSoft, a chief rival in the market for software packages that businesses use to manage payroll, human resources and related functions. Antitrust regulators contend that the market would be left without sufficient competition.
In April 2003, the Oracle board was presented with a list of potential acquisition targets. On that list, Lawson was listed as a "complementary" midmarket acquisition for Oracle, Henley said.
That presentation came roughly three months before PeopleSoft announced its acquisition of J.D. Edwards -- which prompted Oracle to announce its hostile takeover bid for PeopleSoft.
Oracle's acquisition list was particularly interesting, given that Oracle has downplayed J.D. Edwards' importance, saying last year that it would rather have acquired a PeopleSoft that didn't include J.D. Edwards.
The list of potential acquisition candidates was put together by Oracle's mergers and acquisition group, headed by Safra Catz, Oracle's co-president. Catz also spearheaded the PeopleSoft takeover bid.
Henley was asked during his deposition whether a Lawson acquisition was discussed by the board. "I can't remember if we discussed it. I believe we would have at least talked briefly about it," he replied. "I mean, in these meetings, these things trigger a lot of conversation... I'm sure we must have at least mentioned it."
He said he didn't recall where the discussion went. "I just don't remember what degree of discussion we would have had about Lawson," he said. "But we wouldn't have put it in here if we didn't think this was something we should think about."
He added that he didn't know whether there were any discussions between Oracle and Lawson regarding a potential merger.
Henley said acquiring J.D. Edwards would have given Oracle a stronger presence in the applications market. "Again, the theme has been that we felt that getting a stronger presence in the applications space would be useful to us," he explained. "So they were in the applications space, along with Lawson, PeopleSoft, a number of other -- Cerner -- a number of other companies. So it was really in that spirit that it gives us... a bigger footprint in the applications market."
Industry watchers have repeatedly asked Oracle whether it would be interested in acquiring software maker BEA Systems, too. Oracle has said that in addition to PeopleSoft -- or perhaps as an alternative -- it has considered acquiring companies in other markets, including BEA.
DOJ witness: Oracle discounts against PeopleSoft
During late-morning testimony, California Institute of Technology professor Preston McAfee discussed competition and pricing strategies used by technology companies in general and Oracle specifically.
McAfee, a Justice Department expert witness who reviewed some Oracle customer discount forms that its sales representatives submitted to executives for approval, said Oracle would reduce its price by 13 to 26 percent, if it knew it was competing against PeopleSoft.
The CalTech professor testified that customers would be paying 5 percent to 30 percent more for Oracle products, if PeopleSoft was not around to offer competing prices.
Customers like GAF Materials, for example, had Oracle's sales staff rushing to get the software maker's top executives to sign off on a discount of up to 85 percent off the list price for Oracle's Professional User E business suite 2003 and other products. GAF was contemplating buying $6.7m in software licenses, based on list price, and $1.5m in support.
"We're in a head-to-head battle with PeopleSoft. We've been told we have the functional vote, but GAF claims adamantly that they can run their business equally successfully on either PeopleSoft or Oracle," a salesperson wrote in one of the discount request forms. "(PeopleSoft chief executive) Craig Conway is calling in to the account to try to delay decision past 31 May and [has] gotten ultra aggressive on the price and discount to win the business."
On cross-examination, McAfee acknowledged that some of the materials he relied on came from PeopleSoft customers, which could have had a bias.
Oracle is expected to present its case after the Justice Department finishes. The nonjury trial, which began 7 June, was expected to last about four weeks.
