Following the news that the Microsoft founder, who is the world's wealthiest man, will receive an honorary knighthood for "services to global enterprise", the group said it "had serious reservations at such an award".
"Microsoft's use of unfair business practices to damage its competitors and to extend its de facto monopolies in desktop and consumer computing has been before the courts many times," said the group. "Microsoft's software has been written with scant regard for security, pushing the enormous cost of counteracting viruses/spam, and for repairing their damage, onto its own customers." Other operating systems rarely suffer such problems, said UKUUG chairman Charles Curran, "having been designed with security and robustness as goals rather than as afterthoughts."
The UKUUG bills itself as a non-profit organisation and technical forum for the advocacy of Unix and Unix-like operating systems, the promotion of open-source software, and the advancement of open programming standards and networking protocols.
Curran took particular offence to the reasons given by the Foreign Office for the award, which included recognition of Gates' outstanding contribution to enterprise, employment, education and the voluntary sector in the UK.
"Given the enormous sums paid to Microsoft as licence fees by the British public and private sector every year," said Curran, "it is doubtful that he even makes a net contribution, still less an 'outstanding' one."
"It is particularly unfortunate that this honour should be given at a time when government and business finally have real alternatives to Microsoft on PCs," Curran added. "The UKUUG believes that the government, as a matter of urgency, should get serious about using alternatives like Linux to reduce the costs of UK enterprise, employment, education, and voluntary sectors."
Microsoft was not immediately able to pick up the gauntlet.
Talkback
Uk Unix User Group :<i> "Microsoft's software has been written with scant regard for security, pushing the enormous cost of counteracting viruses/spam, and for repairing their damage, onto its own customers"</i>
This is really funny isn't it?
This rapidly declining declining user group, which has watched Microsoft basically clobber Unix in the market place and finds itself becoming less and less relevant, will be better served focusing its attention and bile on the anarchist bomb throwers from the Linux community who are the real cause of the "enormous cost of counteracting viruses".
The latest crime of the Linux community? The "MYDOOM" virus which is busy causing havoc around the world even as we speak.
Go read : <b>"MyDoom Virus Could be 'Linux War' Weapon "</b> at
http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3304311.
When did it become normal to blame the victim of a hate crime for crimes being commited by the hater, in this case the Linux community?
This is obviously a blatant anti-Microsoft propaganda attempt by another "Microsoft is Satant" group.
It has zero credibility, and it will have about as much effect on the British Goverment as an eunoch has on a virgin.
Bil Gates still gets his Knighthood and the "Hate Microsoft" psychos will be forced to choke on their own bile yet again!
Smithy, I can say that this user group is not rapidly declining and in fact has been growing in popularity since the late 90's mainly due to the success of Linux.
Charles' comments are not anti Microsoft for the sake of being anti Microsoft, he's just stating that Bill Gates is not worthy of a knighthood, which based on his track record is a fair comment. Remember his company was found guilty of anti-competitive business practices in the US (the fact that their punishment was so weak as to be ineffective is another matter) and is facing the same fate in the EU.
As for virus writers being Linux users you're just falling for the misinformation from the likes of SCO and Microsoft, just because a small number of people write viruses and they may happen to run Linux (who knows?) doesn't mean all Linux users are like that, they are a minority, hated by both the vast majority of Linux and Windows users.
You can't judge a group of people by a small minority claiming to be from the group they represent - there's extremists everywhere from all walks of life.
I do believe the virus writers are bad people but still MS does deserve a lot of the blame too. Imagine buying a car that was advertised for its security features and then someone manages to steal it using a paperclip - the criminal may be the person to blame, but the manufacturer shipped an insecure product despite the knowledge that someone would take advantage.
I think Smithy, NY is off the mark. I, and I expect many in UKUUG and
others in the world who advocate open systems, have _no hate_ for either
Microsoft or Bill Gates.
What my submission to ZDNet --
our PR is at http://www.ukuug.org/pr/2004-01-26_Gates.html; it also
points to what UKUUG stands for --
was attempting to do was question whether it was right for the Queen/UK
Foreign Office to honour Bill Gates (with a knighthood).
If Smithy just wants to say that Microsoft is the best solution and that
open systems are bad (of course that's a paraphrase), then say that,
and let's debate that.
(http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=www.zdnet.com ;->)
(As it happens, UKUUG is not a `rapidly declining declining user
group', the membership is roughly stable, alas.
[does that double decline suggest growth? ;-) ] )
Getting back to Microsoft, I suggest reading Monday's The Times:
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,2020-9080-978071,00.html
(if it is still available); to quote just a bit `Paul Smith, an analyst
at Kable, a public sector IT research group, said: “Governments all over
Europe are looking at Linux as a serious alternative at a local and
public policy level. It is the single biggest threat to Microsoft in the
public sector.” '. If you have comments on that article, why not
contact The Times' editor: mailto:letters@thetimes.co.uk ?
There is also an article in The Register covering some of the same
issues: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/35063.html
Oh, and then there's the latest EU about to get hard on Microsoft:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3432735.stm .
David Hallowell :<i>"Smithy, I can say that this user group is not rapidly declining and in fact has been growing in popularity since the late 90's mainly due to the success of Linux. "</i>
Lets look at the facts now shall we?
FACT: Windows NT has gone from ZERO market share in 1993 (when it was introduced) to a market share of 55% as at the end of 2002 according to both IDC and Dataquest.
Meanwhile, Unix server unit sales have fallen to a measly 11%. Even if you add in Linux, Windows still trumps the combined Linux and Unix units by 55.1 % to 33.4 %.
This is in site of all the massive, constant Linux hype and propaganda.
REF : http://searchwin2000.techtarget.com/newsItem/0,289139,sid1_gci931438,00.html?track=NL-118
David Hallowell also claims : <i>"Charles' comments are not anti Microsoft for the sake of being anti Microsoft, he's just stating that Bill Gates is not worthy of a knighthood, which based on his track record is a fair comment"</i>
Really?
Listen, I lived In Britain for 10 years before moving to New York, and if Bill Gates is "not worthy" of a knighthood, then I can think of at least 10 people who were so honored, who had or subsequently committed crimes that would make Bill Gates look like a saint.
Like a certain Lord Archer of Western-super-Mare who who committed the most serious fraud, perjury, bribery and corruption BEFORe he was made a Lord of the realm, but was only subsequently exposed after he was made a Lord , tried and sent to jail at her majesty's pleasure.
I happened to be living in Britain when ole Lord Archer bribed someone to lie for him in court concerning his having patronized a prostitute. I don't recall the Unix Users Group or any other group coming out with vicious attacks against Archer then. After all, his name was not Bill gates, right?
The Labour Party was no better. Labour's record is no better. Amongst the list of crooks and spivs honoured by British Prime Minister Harold Wilson were :
Lord Kagan, Lord Plurenden, Sir Eric Miller, old uncle Lord Brayley etc etc.
Its enough to send a guy to Bedlam.
Why is the Unix Users Group not complaining about all these convicted crooks who were given honours and instead launch vicious attacks against the greatest philanthropist Africa has ever seen, giving more to fight malaria than the entire European Union?
Especially given the fact that malaria was killing up to 2000 Black African children every single day? (BTW, I happen to be from West Africa myself and please note that these honours are given nt just for works done n Britain but for works done in the Commonwealth like Nigeria, Ghana, South Africa etc ec as well)
The other point I want to take David Hallowell on is, he claims that : <i>" ....l MS does deserve a lot of the blame too. Imagine buying a car that was advertised for its security features and then someone manages to steal it using a paperclip - the criminal may be the person to blame, but the manufacturer shipped an insecure product despite the knowledge that someone would take advantage. "</i>
Your analogy simply does not hold water in this case.
I am going to give you a quote from CNN on this "MyDoom" virus, which was written by Linux fanatics to cause mayhem and destruction and designed to do as much damage to Microsoft as possible, and bring SCO to it's knees for daring to demand that their stolen property be returned to them.
In the piece entitled <b>"Experts: Vicious worm 'Linux war' weapon"</i> here is a quote:
(http://edition.cnn.com/2004/TECH/internet/01/27/mydoom.spread/index.html)
<b>"While many computer users are savvy about not opening executable files or other attachments that may contain viruses, the latest worm masks itself as an innocuous text document or a file that your computer appears unable to read.
"This one is almost begging you to click on the attachment," said Sharon Ruckman, the head of anti-virus firm Symantec's security response team"</b>
Bill Gates can do a lot of things. But he sure can't stop someone from clicking on an "exe" file and effectively installing a virus on his own computer.
Microsoft has set up a web site for all Windows users telling them what steps to take to prevent such things from happening and has in conjunction with the FBI launched an extended education campaign for Windws users.
Are you saying that if you click on a virus execution file in Lnux or Unix, it won't damage your computer or what?
The analogy you should be giving is someone who buys a car, sees (or des not see) a truck crossing the road, and drives into it, then turns around and balmes the car manufacturerer. It just won't wash.
And another thing, for you Linux/Unix evangelists to say a Linux system is secure is funny.
Why? Because hardly anyone is attacking Linux at all.
The overwhelming majority of viruses are wrtten against Windows , a lot of them (like the "MyDoom" virus) writen by open source/Linux fanatics to do damage to Microsoft.
Linux has basically not been subject to anything close to the virus attacks on Windows. So how can you even dream of saying its more secure than Windows? Cetainly the figures from CERT don't back you up. n fact according to CERT's figures, Windows 2003 server is much more secure than Linux.
Its like sying the French army can fight, just because they strut about and look fierce in their uniforms, when in fact we know for a fact that anytime the Germans decided to take France n the last century, they just came up and gave the French a clobbering, taking only 6 weeks to smoke the French in World War Two!
Same thing with Linux.
In any head to head shoot out, Windows smokes Linux everytime, in every department.
Perhaps the reason the UKUUG has not commented on these other knighthoods is because they're areas that have no bearing on the UKUUG, Microsoft's way of conducting business does have a strong bearing on the computing industry that's why the comments were made.
Bill Gates' charity contributions were not the reason for his knighthood, it's good that he makes these donations but lets not forget how insignificant they are compared to his total wealth, it's like the equivalent of someone who's unemployed putting 10p in a charity box, one set of good deeds does not excuse ones other actions.
As for your comments on NT's marketshare, I'll be fair and say that I was pleasantly surprised when I used Win2k (NT5), I honestly believe that it was competition in the form of Linux that helped the motivation to make it a decent product. There is a place for Windows and in many cases (mostly on the desktop) it's the right tool for the job, but on the other hand there's many times when an alternative would be the better option.
Microsoft only have the incentive to improve their products when they either want to take over a market or they see a threat to their marketshare so if Microsoft ever succeeded in eliminating their competition expect to never see any further improvements in MS products. Take for an example Internet Explorer, it started off as a useless browser totally inferior to the Netscape of its time, but they offered it free in the hope to steal Netscape's market, people still bought Netscape, so they improved their product so that it was better in many ways to Netscape and their market share climbed to 90%, after this they stood still and there hasn't been an update to IE for ages, while browsers such as Mozilla and Opera are racing ahead, once IE's browser share slips again you can expect them to start 'innovating' features from the alternative browsers,
So basically, I don't want to see any OS with the same market share Windows currently enjoys, including Linux. I just want Microsoft to play fair and governments to stop rewarding Microsoft and Gates while they're currently abusing their position. A more level playing field would benefit everyone
David Hallowell : "Bill Gates' charity contributions were not the reason for his knighthood, it's good that he makes these donations "
I will just refer you to the official Number 10 Downing Street announcement at :
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/page5242.asp
I quote from the Prime Minister's official annoucement :
"In 2000 the Gates Foundation announced the single biggest international educational scholarship programme ever established in the United Kingdom. With an estimated worth of US$210 million, it allows 230 students to study at Cambridge University. In addition, his international development work makes the Gates Foundation one of the leading philanthropic organisations of the modern age."
Gates' tremendous charity work is one of the reasons (if not the main reason) that he is being honoured. Period.
As for your comment that its only a small part of his waelth he is giving out.... well you are wrong on that one too actually.
The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is now endowed with to the tune of a staggering $25 Billion from Bill Gates, making him the greatest philantrophist in the history of mankind.
This is especially inpressive given that he is now left with only $55 Billion according to Forbes magazine.
Also Bill has stated over and over again that 99% of his money is going to go to charity.
No one, but no one even comes close to this guy in the amount of good he is doing and will do in his life time!!
BTW, having lived in Britain for a very long time, I don't quite recall any of the billionaires in Britian even coming close to doing what Bill Gates has done for the poor and needy, and tyo cure and prevent diseases for the poor, not even in Britain, not to talk of in Africa or any other poor countries!
Answering your next lot of comments, I have to say anyone who believes SCO's case is very misinformed of the facts see the analysis on http://www.groklaw.net/ for the other side of the story. Also, did you know SCO is really a former Linux company called Caldera, they bought the UNIX division of old SCO who renamed to Tarentella, Caldera then became SCO and started suing IBM with little evidence as a last ditch attempt to avoid bankruptcy.
The way executable files are handled on Linux will make it a lot harder for a user to innocently click on a file thinking it's an innocent text file. This is because executable files are set as a permission in the linux filesystem not as an extension as in Windows. Therefore you can't make an execuatable look like a text file simply by calling the file something.txt.exe and setting the .exe's file to the Notepad icon (because Windows by default is set to hide file extensions then many won't see the .exe) - so yes, this is a bad decision by Microsoft.
Now can you stop accusing Linux community of writing the latest Windows worm, you can't judge a community on the actions of a minority.
"This is especially inpressive given that he is now left with only $55 Billion according to Forbes magazine."
Only? I hope he travelled Economy class over to the UK with that little money! So what if he's giving away 99% of his money in the future (which I doubt), 1% of $55 billion is still more than enough to live a very comfortable lifestyle.
Doing good things from basically money you obtained through unfair business practices does not make you a good person, it just makes you less bad.
David Hallowell : " have to say anyone who believes SCO's case is very misinformed of the facts"
I have folowed the case closely, and I think SCO will win because they have the law and right on their side.
But we'll just leave that to the courts.
As for being able to or not being able to male "exe" files look like "txt" files, that is surely not the issue here.
Imagine if you will, that Linux has the market share of Windows today, and its being used by truck, drivers, miners, wrestlers and people who basically don't know or want to know too much about how computers work.
Then they get an email , even with a normal "exe" file attachment which as been cleverly made out to tempt them to open it.
Or imagine a 7 year old child opening reading his emails or a grandmother who can't see very well.
In fact in most of these cases, they willl simply open the attachment file and not even realise they have just screwed their computer up till much later.
These are the kinds of things Windows with 95% of the market has to go through.
Linux, which s 99% used by geeks doesn't come close to going through any of this.
Like I said before, you can't claim somethng is that good when its not been tested by anything close to the # of viruses Windows has been subjected to and subjected to use by ordinary consumers.
Remember I said I didn't want to see any operating system with the current dominance of Windows, that includes Linux.
Basically your argument backs up what I was saying. A heterogeneous computing environment where no system is dominant will reduce the problem of viral attacks because only a small portion of systems will then be eligible to be affected for each virus/worm/etc.
Also like I also mentioned, as Linux doesn't use the filename to indicate executable status but instead sets it as a file permission then the problem of someone not seeing the .exe is removed.
In Linux to execute a file from an email attachment:
1) Save file to disk
2) chmod +x filename
3) ./filename
Therefore you at least need to know what you're doing before running an executable file.
David Hallowell, it doesn't matter what the attachment is , if the operating system is being used by ordinary people, kids, old people, etc etc, they can and they will click on the attachment and run an "exe" file by mistake and end up installing a virus on their computers.
The trouble with the Linux fanatics is, this operating system is hardly used at all by ordinary consumers, and so everything you say is just theory and wishful thinking. Plus Linux doesn't get anything close to even 5% of the viruses written for Windows.
As for heterogeneous environment, it brings with it a whole new set of problems. In fact it can be argued that security problems will actually increase in that kind of environments.
You are just talking theory, which has not been proved by the facts on the ground, so you can make any boasts you want, but that doesn't make it fact does it?
Smithy writes:
<i>I am going to give you a quote from CNN on this "MyDoom" virus, which was written by Linux fanatics</i>
It's ridiculous to blame all Linux users for the actions of one or a few idiots (the author/authors of the MyDoom virus/worm).
<i>
Bill Gates can do a lot of things. But he sure can't stop someone from clicking on an "exe" file and effectively installing a virus on his own computer.
</i>
Well, most Unix mail clients don't allow you to execute attachments at all (I can't think of one that allows it but I don't know them all, there is a wide choice). This was a lesson learned by most of the email-using IT world in 1988 (yes, 88 not 98), when the CHRISTMA EXEC worm brought BITNET to its knees. If this lesson had also been learned by Microsoft, their email products would be a whole lot more secure.
One cannot help but stare at wonder at the manner in which in this discussion, Bill Gate's honour offer has been attached to the "so called" poor of the world - (West Africa, etc). To speak of such regions and direct donations of money, does little to expose the manner in which other economic constraints, (such as tied aid, protectionism, dumping; "superclass - the political-economy"), have deeply influenced the rate of development of such regions.
Considering the fact that there are so many willing to declare Microsoft "Anti-competitive" by nature, one wonders how the currently defined practices of Microsoft influence the very nature of the development and future sustainability of such economies. Kinda like i'll give you £10 to fight malaria if you, or members of your governments, do not in any way, question my dominance over a particular aspect of production worth billions. "Give me malaria anyday".
Anyway, there are greater concerns here in the UK. Like how to break Microsoft's firm grip on PC's emerging from factory gates in a manner that exposes users to alternatives, thereby increasing local productivity potential and experience - These things all go on to affect the trade balance, jobs creation, productivity direction, etc, all helping to increase affinity and control. New strategies have to be adopted to ensure that Microsoft's domination at factory gates are in fact broken, giving way to the emergence of other competitive entities that will help ensure better integration with the future demands of Europe.
As for the Unix group making noise.... Ah well, you didn't make enough noise when Microsoft was going to be given responsibility over data on "all UK citizens" - the "gateway project", one wonders why you are making noise now. Added to that, one does believe that the Members of microsoft are a lot more politically astute than those of the Unix camp. After all, what do those of the Unix camp really have to loose? Does the product they represent really belong to them.....
James Youngman : <i>"Well, most Unix mail clients don't allow you to execute attachments at all (I can't think of one that allows it but I don't know them all, there is a wide choice)"</i>
Yeah?
The operative word here is "MOST Unix mail clients".
Even assuming that dubious claim is true, a system is only as secure as its weakest link.
Vague statements like "Most" and " I can't think of one that allows it" just won't wash..
And just in case you still think Linux is so secure, read this link:
http://www.zdnetindia.com/techzone/stories/94133.html
Nothing less than the Debian Linux server itself was hacked without any problems by a bunch of hackers!
Some quotes from that article :
"A Gentoo Linux project server has been compromised by attackers and subsequently pulled offline for a full forensic analysis.
The attack and subsequent compromise comes a after several machines belonging to the Debian Linux project were breached by attackers last month."
And :
""During this time, approximately 20 users synchronised against the portage mirror stored on this box. The method used to gain access to the box remotely is still under investigation. We will release more details once we have ascertained the cause of the remote exploit," it read. "
So much for the much vaunted "security"of Linux. LOL!
Like I keep saying, most viruses and attacks by far are directed against Windows machines, a lot of them by Linux/Open source haters.
The few occasions when anyone has attempted to hack Linux machines,they have tended to be successful quite a lot of the time.
You can't say something is secure just because very few people are attempting to hack into it or write viruses to attack it.
Linux has got a glass jaw! :)
Adebayo Omo-Dare, from your name I take it you are a Yoruba from Western Nigeria.
Well I am amazed you to hear you whine about ;
"Bill Gate's honour offer has been attached to the "so called" poor of the world - (West Africa, etc). "
As it happens,I was born and raised in Ghana, and worked in the then Ondo State of Nigeria as a teacher four years after finishing university.
And.. I worked deep in the rural areas ,with no treated pipe-borne water, no electricity, , very little medicines available for babies and children
Kids regularly died from contracting diseases from drinking untreated water and from easily treatable diseaseslike malaria because of lack of medicines.
We had similar problems in Ghana too.
The Europeans who basically came to Africa to plunder and loot and leave Africa destitute, just sat idly by all these years while up to 2000 children died every day from an easily treatable disease like malaria.
It took an American Bill Gates to come in and really pump in money, equipment and the infrastructure and personall to really tackle these problems.
For you, a Nigerian to sit in Britain and mindlessly attack Bill gates for the wonderful very vital humanitarian work he is doingin Africa is simply beyond belief!
I think you have maybe forgotten your roots.
And,... if you want to attack someone for doing massive damage to Africa,why don't you talk about that ex-leader of yours, one Sanni Abacha ,who was Nigerian head of state for 6 years and in that time managed to steal to the the tune of billions of dollars of Nigerian money and deposited the money in European banks,while most Nigerians starved?
A few more points:
1. It wasn't America that colonized and raped Africa.It was Europe. America owes Africa little. But Europe does.
2. Microsoft's sales/profits from sub Saharan Africa is close to zero. As you and I know, very few people have PC's in Africa.Plus even those who have them, simply pirate all the Microsoft software they need without paying anything to anybody.
3. Bill Gates has put in far more money into fighting diseases and poverty in Africa than Microsoft is ever likely to see in a very very long time to come.
4.For a dying,sick or starving child in Africa, all they want is relief and medicines and treatment, no matter where it comes from.For a bunch of Europeans(the very guys the plundered Africa) to make hypocritical whinny noises and complain when someone else is doing what they should have been doing themselves fin the past 40 years at least, is not only an outrage, its disgusting and beyond contempt!
Smithy, if the person who wrote the virus that attacked SCO is a Linux loon, then would it follow that the people who collaborated to attack the Debian server are all Microsoft goons?
Smithy, though you may speak of plundering, poverty and donations in a separitist mannner, one is not naive enough not to see the way in which institutions/organisations and individuals derive benefits from accepted practices/policies.
Though one would not like to begin to blab about pre and post World War economic/political policies/strategies and the "exodermic and endodermic" shocks introduced on both sides of that equation in developing nations, one would say that indications of Microsoft's basic attitude with regards to the so called Developing Nations was clearly seen in South America, where they tried to stop the official introduction of Open Source platforms in government using the office of the US Ambassedor.
To me what Microsoft does or does not do, is of little relevance. Africa is not a country, but a continent made up of diverse countries with diverse potentials all of which evolve based on attitudes and accepted practices. Seeing that my focus is on R&D related to Open Source and the manufacture and deployment of products in W.Africa, you might see me as being biased. However, my belief is that the future of Africa lies less in AID and more in increases to production on all levels.
Ps. With regards to leaders, new/old, and corrupt practices, one would presume that you are yourself not that naive - one would also expect you to be a lot clearer with regards to international "realities" and the benefits derived from the development of partisan -pack- natures in the face of pseudo intellectual banter.
Here too, I care little about nationalistic assumptions and more about the nature of individuals and their behavior with regards to their circumstance and their pursuits.
I would like to question Smithy on his knowledge and understanding of how the *nix operating systems actually function. Do you have a single clue, have you actaually run any of these OS?
You also said in anything windows smokes linux hands down, expand on this for me please.
Reliability?
Stability?
Choice?
Economy of resources?
Flexibility?
Power?
Scalability?
Plesse offer me direct examples of how Windows beats Linux in any or all of the above areas. I will post back with benchmarks and links to show all of the above areas being challenged or easily won by linux/UNIX.
Smithys points on the debian servers being hacked:
Please note the debian social contract
http://www.debian.org/social_contract.html
point 3 says it all. Many many companies are hacked and don't reveal that this has happened, debian do. As an example the half life 2 source code is freely available on the net, produced by your beloved M$. The code red and slammer worms are undisputable evidence that windows is inherently insecure, XP is still being shipped without the patches for these worms, it is possible to have an infected XP box before registration has taken place!!??
adebayo omo-dare asserts that : "one would say that indications of Microsoft's basic attitude with regards to the so called Developing Nations was clearly seen in South America, where they tried to stop the official introduction of Open Source platforms in government using the office of the US Ambassedor. "
There you go again making wild unsubstantiated allegations about the "Great Satan" Microsoft.
Microsoft has not, repeat has not used any US ambassador to "try and stop" open course in South America. Period!
Thatwould simply not make any sense.
Is Microsoft trying to educate SouthAmerican PCusers about the advantages of usingWindows instead of Linux? You bet!
Its called marketing.Nothing illegal or underhand about that.
That's what every corporation does if they want tosell anything. Get it?
And there are no little green men from Mars being used by Microsoft to brainwash the British into using Microsoft products either.
Its something called the free market. Ever heard of it?
When I first came to Britian, the BBC computer (based on the Acorn computer) and Sir Clive Sinclair's Sinclair Computer were the leading PC's in Britain.
Microsoft was nowhere to be found in those days.
Bill Gates did not hold a gun to the head of anybody to buy Microsoft software.
There was a plain old market shake out,and at the end of the shootout, Microsoft Windows was left as the dominant PC software.
There was no Juju, no hyptotism, no gun held at anyone's head, nothing!
Microsoft won the British PC market fair and square. Get used to it, pal!
adebayo omo-dare : "To me what Microsoft does or does not do, is of little relevance"
Yeah?
1. This award is not for Microsoft. Its for Bill Gates.
2. Try telling the over 2000 black African children who were dying every single day from an easily treatable disease like malaria, that the vitally needed medication that they are getting from Bill Gates ,is saving their lives and allowing them to grow up into very healthy,useful citizens of the world.
Try telling those sick kids that what Gates is doing is of "little relevance".
The trouble with you is, you go and live in England and are so consumed with hatred against America and anything American, that hatred has simply taken over your judgement.
The current Old Europe attitude is : " Hey I am living comfortably, my children are healthy and well fed, so who cares if we have a few more thousand black Africa chidren die from diseases every day or who cares if Saddam createsv a few more mass graves?
The important thing for Europeans is: The hatred of America and American companies should take precedence over everything else."
A prime example of that attitude being the virulently anti-American,vicious BBC whose hatredofAmerica led to them lying at will every day to spread anti-America hatred (readtheHuttonReport).
That is really sad and pathetic!
Adebayo Omo-Dare asserts : "Here too, I care little about nationalistic assumptions and more about the nature of individuals and their behavior with regards to their circumstance and their pursuits. "
From your previous posts, its quite clear you don't really care that much for sick or dying children in Africa.
Left to you and your pen source/Linux fanatics, you'd give a Linux CD-ROM to every dying child in Africa, so they can proudly die giving the finger to Bill Gates, right?
According to Bascule : "Many many companies are hacked and don't reveal that this has happened, debian do. As an example the half life 2 source code is freely available on the net, produced by your beloved M$"
Wrong again, as is usual with the open source fanatics.
1. Half Life is NOT being produced by Microsoft as you blithely (and falsely) assert.
Half Life, as anyone who knows anything about this game knows, is being produced by a company called VAVLE. Get it?
2. For the Linux crazies to even dream of bringing in that weak, tired old excuse of "Many many companies are hacked and don't reveal that " is simply beyond belief and a great source of amusement to me.
This was the source code for crying out loud. It hardly ever happens, Half Life or no Half Life.
Plus of course the open source community take great pleasure and glee in hollering hysterically anytime there is the slightest security issue with Windows, and totally refuse to accept any defence of Microsoft using the same ecuse you just made: That it happens to every operating system out there. Its just that we have over 100 times more Windows PC's out there than any other OS, so it follows that Windows has most of the attacks.
I find it incredible that you have the nerve to bring in that excuse now.
Won't wash pal!
Bascule : "You also said in anything windows smokes linux hands down, expand on this for me please.
Reliability?
Stability?
Choice?
Economy of resources?
Flexibility?
Power?
Scalability? "
Windows 2003 simply smokes Linux in every single one of the above attributes.
Every benchmark have seen has Windows 2003 Server easily clobbering Linux.
Feel free to go look for the benchmarks yourself, since you cliam that you are a student.
That should be a nice assignment don't you think? :)
Jonsaw : " Smithy, if the person who wrote the virus that attacked SCO is a Linux loon, then would it follow that the people who collaborated to attack the Debian server are all Microsoft goons? "
Nope.
You are not comparing like with like.
1. We don't have a fanatical hate-filled "Microsoft Source" movement anywhere that I have come across. Most Microsoft Microsoft software users are just normal people who don't even know what open source or Linux is. They are secretaries, truck drives, nurses, doctors etc etc. Normal decent folkes.
The open source/Linux movement however is another matter altogether.
These guys are mostly geeks, and their overriding reason for living (even more than theirfamilies or loved ones) is to destroy Microsoft by any means possible, fair foul, lying, disinformation,illegal, whatever.
I have been going to Slashdot too. You should see what those open source fanatics regularly propose to do to Microsoft every single day.
2. The second point as I need not remind you is that the Debian server was attacked and that was it. Just one server( or afew servers)
This MyDoom virus, however, is a massive attack agisnst millions of Windows PC's , a terrorist Linux attack calculated to send fear into users of Windows PCs everwhere and do as much damage to the world ecnomy and Microsoft as possible.
If you think the two are the same, you sure need a new piar of glasses!
Smithy I think you are merely a troll. You are the one who sounds like the fanatic round here, stick with the facts not opinions.
Benchmarks:
http://www.open-mag.com/features/Vol_66/TuxNET/TuxNET.htm
Pretty close to be fair, the other benchmark is obviously just a microsoft funded PR stunt. The didn't even run them on the same hardware for crying out loud. Would you accept benchmarks funded and run by RedHat engineers in their labs?
My debian post was hardly an excuse, it is a fact. Would MS admit a server hack? I don't refute the 'windows is more popular angle' at all. It is true.
You have side-stepped my opening question, what experience/understanding do you have of *nix? That level of virus propagation is impossible in Linux because only root has access to the necessary system files.
Linux servers are actually attacked far more than Windows servers, the majority of the net run Linux web servers and they are constantly attacked, though no code red or slammer has appeared for them, plainly and simply because Linux is an inherently more secure OS, all that integration in doze has just left it wide open.
2003 looks like some good moves from MS, but to use your own argument, so few sites actually run it, how can we tell? maybe its all that BSD code that MS admit that they have in there.
Nothing in your last post answered any of my points reagarding windows 2003 utter superiority in all categories, not a single thing at all, just noise no backing.
Show me how 2003 is more flexible,scalable resource efficient or secure. To think windows is as powerful as *nix convinces me you have never run, or learned a *nix OS, you couldn't say that if you had; its a fisher price toy compared to a formula 1 car.
Scalability - 2003 running on 32 processor 8Gb RAM machines is it?. NASA run redhat on theirs, why? It does it better and it also exists in the current Mars rover.Now that's scalability
Flexability. Can I run the latest windows on a P166 with 64MB RAM, nope, can I run the latest Linux/BSD, yup, I need to run the lighter desktops, but it has them and it is feasible. Can i access all other file systems in doze, nope. nix yup.
More secure. HA not!
http://www.esecurityplanet.com/trends/article.php/3076071
You also flamed all slashdot users, the spirit of slashdot is an acquired skill, you'll find most anti-anything posts are modded funny, surf at -1 and you will see how much of the flamebait/trolling gets modded down and counter-acted. Though slashdot admits to being blatantly anti-microsoft,so what, intelligently anti-microsoft is encouraged, unfounded rantings are dealt with appropriately.
Thats all for now, come back with concrete specific examples and I shall entertain you somemore. For now I shall kick back convinced I have won on the production of evidence alone. Reminds me of a current law suit... but thats another story ;p
Bascule, the linux fundamentalist, screeches
"You are the one who sounds like the fanatic round here, stick with the facts not opinions"
Then to show how he sticks to "facts" and not opinions, "Bascule" comes up with this gem
: "Linux servers are actually attacked far more than Windows servers"
Really? Where are your figures from?
You screaming that something is so, desn't make it so does it?. Just normal Linux propaganda. No facts.
Given that the installed base of Windows is to an order of magnitude for far bigger than Lnux, your assertion bodders on the insane.
As for your link to "Open-mag" using an "Open Bench" benchmark , its of no consequence.
The only mtach or any clear thinking, non-Linux person will accept are the ones from world recognised, INDEPENDENT testers like IDC, Dataquest, ZDNET etc etc.
To take some funny figures from an open source site of dubious reputation, using some open source benchmark that no one but open source fanatics recognise,is the best equivalent of a loaded dice I ever saw.
If you think anyone is going to accept that, You must be smoking something strong indeed.
But just for the record, Windows 2003 still smoked Linux in most of the benchmarks even using your own so-called "openbench" benchmark.
Your Debian post was w tyical Linux whine. I don't care if Debian admitted it or not. Fact remains , they Linux ource code was easily hacked. And if Debian had not admitted it, those hackers would simply have released that info on the internet. It basically wasn't a secret anymore once they got hacked was it?
Bascule whines: "Scalability - 2003 running on 32 processor 8Gb RAM machines is it?. NASA run redhat on theirs, why? It does it better and it also exists in the current Mars rover.Now that's scalability "
Yeah? I see. That would explain why both Mars Rovers are currently screwed up dute to "technical problems"
Crapy linux strikes again! LOL!
As for scalability, show me the figures for even one non-clustered Linux machine at http://tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_perf_results.asp?resulttype=noncluster&version=5
where 64 bit, 64 processor Windows 2003 is shooting it out with the best of them, with linux nowhere to be found!
BTW, who cares if you can run linux on a P166 64 MB PC?
Tell me, who exactly is selling such an ancient ruin of a machine today?
In fact that spec is so ancient, you are actually going to have to pay MORE money to buy such a machine, since they are going to have to dig it out of a museum first. LOL!
That point is of no relevance, its immmaterial and its incompetent!
Come up with something that actualy makes some sense will you?
Smithy, type in to google - ambassador peru nunez microsoft - or go to http://www.msl.mit.edu/esd10/sslinks/links.php?cat=116 or other places. One wonders how long you have been burrying your head in the sand. Guess using Microsofts products has got to you hey?
Not that I detest Microsoft - its, in my opinion, an Ok Class C OS - made for orgs that require only a class C OS.
Smithy, I am not at all ignorant about economic disparities in the US. Neither am I ignorant about the effects of the US' 20+ trillion deficit on the US economy - present or future. Neither do I have to be Anti-US to know of such things. I just chose not to pull my trousers down willy-nilly.
Adebayo Omo-Dare : <i>"One wonders how long you have been burrying your head in the sand"</i>
I think its you who has been drnking the Linux cool aid pal. And it shows.
Did you read the US Ambassador's letter fully at all?
Here is a direct quote from the US Ambasaddor's latter in Peru:
"In his June letter, Hamilton said that while the United States doesn't oppose the development of open-source software, it prefers to support a free market where the quality of the product can determine the issue. "
It states clearly that the United States Goverment does NOT oppose open source software.
But.... America is for free trade. If the Peruvians are busy stacking the deck so that we don't have open and fair and leagl comptetitive tender for Peruvian goverment software contracts, then of course the Peruvians are breaking WTO (World Trade Organisation ) laws, and the United States has every right to take action against Peru, like imposing levies on Peruvian exports to our country or boycotting their products . I sure won't be buying anything from Peru if they start trying to cheat American companies byu illegal and unfair practices.
Its their call. Illegally cheat so that the inferior Linux software gets all their goverment contracts andthen watch as Peru lose access to their biggest and most important export market (the USA) , or play fair.
Its their call.
My point still stands!
Next?
Adebayo Omo-Dare : "Neither am I ignorant about the effects of the US' 20+ trillion deficit on the US economy -."
Yeah?
Listen. I have lived in Europe for over 10 years, before moving to the United States. One thing I know, America is like over a thousand times more welcoming to immigrants by far than Europe will ever be! Period.
Evety single day we hear about yet more vicious anti-semitic attacks against Jews in Europe.We all stil remember that it was these same Europeans who sluaghtetered to the tune of 6 million Jews in cold blood in Hitler's gas chambers , while the rest of Europe either did nothing about it , or watched in admiration .
It took the great, kind and compassionate America to once again come and save Europe's butt at great expense in lives and money to Americans.
You want to talk economics?America had a GDP growth of an awesome, sizzling 8.2 % in the third quarter of last year, the best growth rate in 20 years!
Europe? You guys are crawling along along like old women, with a measly growth rate of less than 0.5%.!
America is the growth engine of the world.
That trade deficit you are smirking about is what is keepoing Europe from going into a recession.
You guys outta thank God every morning for America!
As for economic disparities, I'd take that in America over that in Europe any day.
Here in America in most states (certainly in New York State) is you are poor the goverment takes care of all your health insurance. Anfd its not like in Britain where you have to wait for like 3 years or more (and end up dead anyway) for ordinary routine medical surgery.
Whats the use if having so-called free NHS, when people die all the time in NHS waiting lists foir their turn?
Don't even go there pal!
smithy ' they Linux ource code was easily hacked. And if Debian had not admitted it, those hackers would simply have released that info on the internet'
The debian source code got stolen???
It's OPEN SOURCE! duhhhh
ROTFLMAO
Though I agree there are far to few benchmarks to really get a clear picture on the 2003/*nix debate. I disagree 2003 smoked, it was close, all who read will see that is so.
'.. your assertion bodders on the insane'
http://www.zone-h.org/winvslinux
Apologies for the missing link earlier.
Yous still haven't answered my question....
Bascule :<i>"The debian source code got stolen???
It's OPEN SOURCE! duhhhh "</i>
Debian source code, open source code, schmopen source code, who cares?
Bottom line : Despite constant boasts from the open source/linux crazies about how secure and bullet proof open source is, in practice it doesn't even come close to being secure, having had your very source code getting hacked into and compromised, while the so-called thousands of eagle eyed open source guradianss fell asleep yet again on the job.
The open source way bascially is no more secure, if not actualy LESS secure than closed source products.
Stick with Microsoft and save yourself the pain of Linux.
Bascule : "Though I agree there are far to few benchmarks to really get a clear picture on the 2003/*nix debate. I disagree 2003 smoked, it was close, all who read will see that is so. "
Check these head to heads between Windows 2003 and Red Hatd Linux 8.0 from Veristest the top, world class INDEPENDENT tester at
http://www.veritest.com/clients/reports/microsoft/ms_competitive_webbench_performance.pdf.
End result :
HP ProLiant DL760
server configured with four 900MHz Pentium III Xeon processors, 4GB of RAM and four Intel
PRO/1000 MF Server Adapters.
Key findings:
Windows Server 2003 with Internet Information Services (IIS)
6.0 delivered higher Web server throughput compared to
Apache 1.3.23 running on Red Hat Linux Advanced Server
2.1 and Red Hat Linux 8.0 on the configurations we tested.
1. Windows Server 2003 with IIS 6.0 delivered 300 percent
better peak performance in the static Web Server
performance testing using eight processors on the DL760
compared to Apache 1.3.23 running under Red Hat Linux
Advanced Server 2.1
2. Windows Server 2003 with IIS 6.0 delivered 51% better peak
performance in the static Web Server Performance testing
using four processors on the DL760 server compared to TUX
running under Red Hat Linux Advanced Server 2.1.
3. Windows Server 2003 with IIS 6.0 delivered 101% better
peak performance in the dynamic E-commerce Web Server
performance testing on the DL380 compared to Apache
1.3.23 and TUX running under Red Hat Linux Advanced
Server 2.1 and 58% better peak performance compared to
Apache 2.0.40 running under Red Hat Linux Advanced
Server 8.0.
WOW!
We are talking about a Windows 2003 better performance of between 51% to 300%!!!!!!!!
If that is not Windows smoking Linux yet again, I don't know what is. :)
Windows 2003 simply ROCKS!
Windows 2003 smokes Linux yet again!
Figures for file and print serving from Veritest, re Windows 2003 versus Linux at :
http://www.veritest.com/clients/reports/microsoft/ms_netbench.pdf
Key Findings:
For
1. Windows Server 2003 delivered significantly better File
server throughput compared to Red Hat Linux Advanced
Server 2.1 and Red Hat Linux 8.0 on the configurations we tested.
2. Windows Server 2003 delivered between 66 and 95 percent
better File server throughput in our tests on a HP DL760
server using up to eight processors compared to Red Hat Linux Advanced Server 2.1.
3. Windows Server 2003 delivered 100 percent better File
server throughput in our tests on a HP DL380 server using
two processors compared to Red Hat Linux Advanced Server 2.1.
4. Windows Server 2003 delivered 86 percent better File server
throughput in our tests on a HP DL380 server using two
processors compared to Red Hat Linux 8.0 Professional.
Its not even close. Windows 2003 and Linux are not even on the same planet!
You guys at Linux need to go back to school, then maybe in another 20 years when or so, when you start to grow up, we can even begin to talk again. Hahahahahahahaha!
Microsoft <??commissioned??> VeriTest, a
division of Lionbridge Technologies,
Inc., to conduct a series of tests
enough said
http://www.redhat.com/software/rhel/benchmarks/
World Records galore
http://www.openbsd.org/
Less secure? One flaw in 7 years.
ever heard of a windows firewall? Nope
Bye for now
Smithy : "Doesn't oppose the dev of Open Source Software... etc"
Well much like the US embassy rep, you seem not to understand the diff b/w OSS and Free software. This was cleared up by Nunez -http://www.opensource.org/docs/peru_and_ms.php.
Each countries gov has standards set for procurement. If a company chooses not to accept those standards then they know where they can go.
We now go on to your issue about the Jews... Tough call as it comes up often.
Under your principle one should be forced to say that the US is a terrilble place because 200yrs ago it used slaves as the backbone of its accelerated development and rise to prominence. US clipper ships were spotted on the coast of WA even after prohibition. One could also speak about the participation of Jews in the financing of the trade, etc, etc...
Yet, terrible as such things are, they debase arguments when put in the wrong context and are badly applied. They also distort reality. We all learn from past mistakes and work to ensure that they are not repeated.... All cannot be blamed for errors in dominant policies as the diversity among peoples is high. There is no set jewish nature in as much as there is no set Ghanaian nature or European nature. And most do nothing in the face of attrocities. Think here also about attrocities made on both sides during the Asante Fante wars that happened in Ghana.... Who should we blame?
One thinks that there are many things that we have to be careful with when we consider them. A little more respect please.
Then, Smithy, there is the economy. One must say that Africa suffers from an absence of good economic strategies that are production related as there are many who see development from the consumption side of the equation and few that see it from the production side. Hence the increased dependence on Aid and the presumption that foriegn investment alone is the growth engine. This might be the reason why so many Afrcan Intellectuals are non-purposeful migrants. The one place profit and success is found is in the process of solving problems and not in the procurement of solutions. One guesses that this is one of the things that separate us, you being gleefully and totally dependent on Microsoft. Selections all depend on if you want to be more of a producer than a consumer. I seem to have chosen the former.
Smithy: "US GDP a sizzling ...."
Well you appear to not have listened to the concerns of a lot of the US economists.
I prefer to look at the foundation of such growth. as it describes the future impact of such policies.
Lower taxes, lower base rates, + issues like the repaying of pension fund borrowings with IOUs' does not inspire long term confidence. It also makes issues like the US invasion of Iraq look suspect. We will all ask questions like... "When US needs to cap raw material/energy price groth what will they do?" What in fact will the impact of their trade deficit involve ... These are questions... And like I say the US is a diverse place with many floating policies and only one dominant one....
One does apologise, smithy, I did mean abolition and not prohibition -- Languages, hey.
Bascule whines : "Microsoft <??commissioned??> VeriTest, a
division of Lionbridge Technologies,
Inc., to conduct a series of tests
enough said "
Veristest is an independent, world class, world recognised IT testing company.
Its irrelevant who commissioned their tests.
The results still hold. Period!
Your figures from Red Hat are like asking Saddam Hussein to chair a human rights meeting or asking someone to give themselves a test and then grade the tests themselves afterwards.. They are of no meaning! LOL!
I won't even bother to look at them.
They are obviously lies , propaganda and disninformation.
If Red Hat is certain Linux is strong, let them commision an independent body, like IDG, Dataquest, ZDNET or Veritest to do their tests.
Then we can even begin to talk.
Otherwise, Windows 2003 rules and smokes the crapy Linux for good!
"nuff said!
Bascule : "Less secure? One flaw in 7 years"
Wrong again.
Go to CERT and check their figures.
According to CERT, Linux has had up to 3 times as many security break ins as Windows 2003.
Now CERT is an independent body. Get it?
Stop putting n links to Linux disinformation, dirty tricks and propaganda sites like opendsd.
No one apart from the Linux fanatics and the losers at Slashdot believe that garbage!
I sure don't!
Windows 2003 smokes Linux everytime. Get used to it, boy.
aAebayo Omo-Dare screeches : "Each countries gov has standards set for procurement. If a company chooses not to accept those standards "
Every country can do what they like, so far as its within the rules laid down by international trade agreements they have already signed (like WTO rules).
And WTO rules call for free, fair and open tender for goverment contracts.
If some corrupt goverment in South America decides to cheat American companies by illegally exluding American companies from goverment contracts, and giving their IT contracts to their pals who are running some two bit Linux outfit, in a pre-determined manner, without going through proper procedure, then of course the American goverment has every right to take strong sanctions against any imports from that country. Remmmber we can import bannanas from anywhere we want, including Ghana, where our farmers wil be delighted with having this wonderfull access to the American markets.
Two can play at that game.
You exculde our companies, we exclude your products from our markets. Simple.
Lets see who ends up losing more. Especially since America is by far the largest maeket for exports fro South America!
Adebayo Omo-Dare : "Under your principle one should be forced to say that the US is a terrilble place because 200yrs ago it used slaves as the backbone of its "
The key word here is 200 years ago.
Thats the difference between Americ ad Europe.
The Europeans not only slaughtered to the tune of 6 million Jews in gas chambers just as recently as 60 years ago, even TODAY, there is currently a huge and massive swell of anti-semitic, vicious anti-Jewish attacks popping up all over Europe, along the same lines as what happened in Hitler's Germany in the 30's and 40's.
And the funny things is, its been quietly supported by goverment, political, and military leaders in these countries.
By contrsat, the mayor of New York today is actually a Jewish (Mayor Bloomberg)
When it comes to blacks, Europe is not even up to the level America was in the 60's, not to talk of making any progress from there.
The racism in Europe today is breathtaking.
As recently as 1997, I myself was refused entry to the dinning room a hotel that I was staying in, in Germany, because of my colour, when my company sent me over to do some work there.
Here in New York , no hotel will even dream of doing such a thing. After all most of the hotel workers are black themselves, plus the mayor of New York himsef was once a black man (mayor Dinkins), something that can never happen in Europe today!
Every single day all accros Europe, the skin heads, the Nazis and the white -supremacists continue to kill non-whites at will.
Turkish immigrants in Germany continue to be fire bombed, killed intimidated, and beaten up regularly in Germany, with very little fear of consequences.
You guys in Europe don't even come clsoe to being in a position to crticise America.
Adebayo Omo-Dare : "One guesses that this is one of the things that separate us, you being gleefully and totally dependent on Microsoft. Selections all depend on if you want to be more of a producer than a consumer. I seem to have chosen the former"
Again no.
Africa's development has to be carried out by Africans, no question. But with as much foreign investments, know how and capital as we can get , just like he Asians have done n the past 40 years.
Another thing, for Africa (or anywhere else) to prosper, we need strong healthy children and people. Without that, you can't get anywhere.
Bil Gates bringing in huge amonuts of medicines, doctors, equipment to save our sick children free of charge, is just about one of the best things that has happened to Africa fr a very very long time.
Just try and seperate your rabid hatred of Microsoft, from the great work Bill Gates is doing for our childen , our sick and our suffering will you?
A sick, dying, hungry African child does not care about Linux. All they want is medication, food, warmth, love, and sustenaince.