A British businessman who connected to the Internet with a 3G
card while abroad was shocked by the massive bill he received after returning to the UK.Using a 3G/GPRS card had cost him £769 for downloading data, at £8 a megabyte. The same amount of data would have cost him less than £10 to download in the UK.
"I was looking forward to using my Orange card while I was in France on holiday and Germany on business," the businessman, Roger Steare, told ZDNet UK. "I was prepared to pay a premium and thought it might be four or five times what I pay in the UK — that's a reasonable premium — I didn't expect it to be 100 times the rate."
Steare said he was "shocked and outraged" that he received no notice about running up such a massive bill simply by using the Orange card abroad. After downloading the data towards the end of September, the first he knew about how much he was charged was when he received his bill in October. "It's frightening to think that I could have been charged even more and I wouldn't have known anything about it," he said. "At no time did they warn me what I would be charged. They say they post that on the Web site but it's not easy to find, even when you are told it is there."
Orange does post its charges for roaming on its Web site. The cost of roaming using a datacard is the largest charge by a factor of ten and is the second to last item on the third page of charges listed in the tariff section. Orange did not dispute that Steare received no other warning that he was running up a bill of hundreds of pounds, beyond the information displayed on its Web site.
Orange also publishes guides to using your phone abroad, which do not give any specific advice on the charges for using the Internet while roaming.
"Orange is committed to providing clear and fair roaming pricing to its business customers wherever they travel," said a spokesman for Orange.
"Orange provide flexible zone-based tariffs offering you access across more than 60 countries so that you can control your international data costs. GPRS and 3G roaming is £8 per megabyte, charged in per kilobyte intervals, whatever zone you're working in," the spokesman added.
Steare disputes the use of the word 'clear'. "When I called to complain about it, the girl I was talking to had to get her supervisor to find out what the roaming rate for data is. That's not exactly clear and transparent, is it?"
[? /*CMS poll(20003887) */ ?]Responding to Steare's letter of complaint, an executive assistant for Orange's executive vice-president, Bernard Gillebaert, wrote: "While I acknowledged your feelings regarding the charges for using GPRS whilst roaming... I believe that we are being open, honest and true with regard to this". Orange has offered to allow Steare to pay off the bill over 10 months at no interest but insists that the bill must be paid or "the standard collection activities will commence".
Steare says he has no intention of paying the bill and that it is now "a matter of principle" for him.
An investigation by ZDNet UK has uncovered that all the UK mobile operators levy massive charges on customers who download data abroad. Click here to read more.
Talkback
I think yes the charges for roaming are expensive and daylight robbery, BUT its there for you to use if you want, no-one forces you to use the service, thats the point of choice. For this man to say that he could not find the charges then thats just irrisponsible. When you buy a phone/mobile you get a booklet, you get the advice of the shops if you need, you get the web site and you get a free customer service number, you even get a free text service to advise you of costs, what more do you want. To complain about a customer service advisor for not knowing the costs of by heart is beside the point. She found out for you by asking, which . Should Orange have told this man of every single cost associated with every service by phoning him or sending a letter. No! Its not practical, there are 100 of charged services and they are available by a number of self service means. Didnt read the terms and conditions and signed the contract means that you agreed to the charges. When you sign the contract you agreed that you will read the full terms and conditions, if you don't you can't complain. Settle the bill and admit its your own fault if you fail to find out the information about service provided to you. Don't pay your bill and look forward to a nice CCJ.
Dear Mr Anonymous Managing Director
Thank you for your comments on my experience, but at no point have I claimed that I couldn't find Orange's data roaming charges. The issue here is one of trust. If you visit www.orange.com you will read pages of clear statements about their Business Principles, Values and Philosophy. My complaint is that Orange is in breach of its own principles and is de facto, acting unethically. There is a difference between business practice which is "legal" and business practice which is "right". If you look up the words "ethics" and "moral" in the OED this should become clearer to you.
I think that the prices are totally outrageous. I can accept to a certain degree additional costs for roaming whilst making calls, but what does it matter as far as data goes. If the roaming network your on supports 3G/GPRS, why not just use there network for the traffic, rather than cause additional latency and traffic on international networks, routing the data back to the UK before the Internet, and then charging us £8 a MB for it.
Totally outrageous. I looked at the Orange site, and I agree - They make it hardly 'clear and crystal' but more like mud about the roaming billing. I believe Orange are oh so gracious in giving the customer 10 months to pay the bill interest free - How sweet of them. Maybe they should revise how they show the pricing of this, then customers won't rack up £800 bills in the first place.
Yep, corporate strategy in full effect. The clear message here is that if you hide information away on page three of three on an obscure bit ofyour website, most people won't see it and hey presto your revenue goes up.
Vodafone did a similar thing years ago when they removed the facility to get an sms telling you how many minutes you had left on that month, can't have customers not going over, won't make money!
They all play these games and it annoys the hell out of me, primarily because it is patronising of these companies to think that we don't know what their marketing plan is.
Unfortunately, we all still give them our business, so they carry on taking the p**s!
We punters should have seen this coming when these highly paid business decision makers at Orange, etc. paid billions for their licences. They made the cock-up and we pay for it. What about a boycott?
Won't make any difference. I do get a bit upset when i evaluate these products and refuse to sanction them for company use because of these pitfalls and I get lambasted as "everyone else is using them".
On Orange, I take great delight in telling Orange callers that I am not doing "business" with them because of the way they treated me as a personal customer. Out of desparation I did contact them recently about international charge saver options and their answer was "we are the cheapest anyway so we don't have any". When I pointed out that they weren't even the cheapest the line went quiet.
I would only deal with these people as a last resort
The teleco's are under pressure from Brussels to reduce their existing roaming charges on voice as these are currently considered excessive in the opinion of the European parliament.
http://europa.eu.int/information_society/activities/roaming/consumer/operators/index_en.htm
Data is seen as the "holy grail" for counter balancing falling voice revenues by the teleco's.
If the teleco's do not want the EEC to dictate tariffs, then charging multiples of 10 (on already other high data markets) is not the way to go about it.
Teleco's are here to provide a communication service to the public. Surely one has to use the word "reasonable" both for providing a public service and also with this pricing issue.
(1) Would it be "reasonable" to expect your teleco service provider to alert you when in habitual consumption is being witnessed?
(2) Compared with other fixed broadband pricing of services would it be deemed “reasonable” for teleco charges to be in-line with the public pricing of other public providers of broadband services?
My own personal opinion is that the teleco's know the writing is on the wall. They are profiting before the wall comes down. Gouging there own customer base, aiming at their own lucrative corporate client base - Corporate clients rarely shout back from there expense sheets.
Private and the younger generation (16-24) expenditure is mainly limited either fixed amount (contract) formula's and or (non contact) prepaid cards. As this consumers section relates to lower ARPU, the teleco marketed data services consumption is aimed at their own corporate clients for the consumption of higher priced data services. Corporate clients have a tendency to pay monthly bills without questioning the formula or how a teleco arrives at to calculate its own roaming data services.
Well done for sticking to your principles the teleco's cannot afford such a high profile over data charges! Go for it!!! I am for anything that will bring more transparency to a supposedly public service!
All the above comments are my own personal opinions and beliefs which should be interpreted as such.
The word 'Clear' is what you dispute now not the £769 worth of services you used. What is not clear about the info on this page, which infact takes 3 clicks and about 30 seconds to get too. http://www.orange.co.uk/international/orange_gprs_table.html?paymonthlycosts. I find you lack of common sense baffling. It is actually only 8 or 9 times more expensive too than the UK. £4 for 4 MB on low bundles or 8 per MB abroad. Im confused how you find its 100 times as expensive. Is it unethical that my company can buy laptops in at £185 and sell at the market price of £1099? No its because we have worked hard with our suppliers and customers at driving down prices to make more profit! Although I can imagine that you would find that unethical.
Mr Anon MD,
Are you by any chance associated in any way, shape or form with either the mobile telephone industry, or Orange in particular?
I find your continuing defence of their unethically non-transparent charges baffling and can see no other reason that you would take such a pig-headed and contrary viewpoint.
Yes, the charges are on the site. No, we don't expect a letter telling us of each of the dozens of charges 'just in case' we may over-use them.
However, it is clear that as mobile charges drop because of marketplace competition, telcos are desperately milking what remains of the higher-value revenue streams still available to them shamelessly. BT did much the same in the dying days of ISDN, when they charged as much as ADSL right up until their customers realised what was going on.
PS - as an MD your spelling and grammar are atrocious. I'd be extremely worried if you were the boss of my company.
Ok, point taken. While you may seem to think that I am pig-headed I came to this board to post on an article that I felt I could contribute. To stay on the subject of the Orange bill and not get into the bat and ball of insults I will not respond with anything that strays from the main subject and your questions within your post (Mr Nixon).
I response to your question (Mr Nixon) I run my own group of companies. One business in online retail and the other in IT business solutions developing CRM projects. Don't worry we are not taking on any Software/Marketing Consultants at the moment so we won't be calling on your services anytime soon.
Mr Nixon I kindly note that my spelling and grammar was not up to the high standard of yours, but for the use of online bulletin boards I find a rushed but to the point answer or comment is sufficient. While it is good practice to make sure I tap the correct keys on the keyboard and string together better, more professional and impressive sounding sentences, I really don't feel that the standard of these posts are reflected in any work for any of my companies, so rest assured I will sleep well tonight in my king sized bed. Especially when it takes a little bit more concentration to put together a bid or contract than to respond to a bulletin board comment.
I felt that my answer to the subject of the Orange bill was not up for scrutiny just because on this occasion I don't agree with Joe public and do the large corporate. In August one of our phone numbers ran up an extremely large amount (Roughly £130) for only a few days of GPRS and call roaming. We knew this would be the case because we did our research into call charges.
I think the call charges are very high, but then so are lots of services, solicitors, accountants and many consultants. It really is a simple matter of choice. My point is and always has been that I think the charges are daylight robbery, but no-matter how you look at this it is and always will be a choice to use roaming services. No-one twists your arm.
One thing if you use it on purpose and it's expensive. But if your device is "hijacked" (don't have a better word). While I was asleep, some operator got my device to connect for a good portion of the night with the result of a bill around € 700. Anyone that has experienced anything like this. During my visit in the Netherlands in 2005.
Martin
Update from "ripped-off" customer. Firstly, thanks for all the support. Secondly, Orange has issued a "deadlock" letter so I can take this dispute to arbitration through CISAS. Third, I will be arguing that Orange are in breach of their published Business Principles and are de facto, in breach of contract. The core issue is the principle of "trust". Orange, like most corporates, promote the principle of trust. Trust is defined in the OED as the principle which allows us to rely on someone or something wihout the need for "evidence or further investigation". This means that customers are not responsible for checking the small-print to ensure they're not being gouged. Orange also claims to be "open and honest" and puts the "interest of customers first." (!!!) I will let you know if the CISAS arbitrators agree with these arguments.
Let Roger Steare know I will back him.... I had a similar bill for £761 of data in one month. And I agree it is not 'clear' how much Orange will charge. I had the same response from them.
I have just found myself in exactly the same position as Mr Steare. Having been with Orange for the past 8 years running, my average personal monthly bill comes to between £50 and £100.
I returned from France to find a bill of £437 for 35 megabytes of information downloaded in about 20 minutes total. For those who cry Caveat Emptor and that it is the customer's duty to check the prices before using the service and subsequently making a complaint. I completey agree. However, like Mr Steare, I expected to pay a premium of about 2 or 3 times the amount normally paid as this would be reasonable. But £360 for 20 minutes is a complete abuse of the customer stuck in a contract with the mobile operator. Further, none of my pre-paid megabytes were even used up.
Having spoken with Orange customer services, they are not prepared to make any reduction or do anything about the bill. I am tied into their contract for a further 11 months after agreeing a 6 mth extension on the upgrade of my phone last July. I am appalled that there are no protection for customer for what are simply extortionate rates.
I was interested in reading this article as I'm in exactly the same position, with a large roaming bill from Orange for January & February 06,
Is there any further information about this case and any suggestions on following up this matter with Orange?
Thanks
I have to admit that i too think that the prices are extortionate but i have to agree with mr MD, he is right in this case.
i have been a user of orange for the last 6 years and i know all of my charges down the penny for every call i am liable to make. if i find that i do not know the call price i call orange first, ask for the price, they tell me and i work out if i can afford it.
If you dont like the price of something DO NOT USE IT. you were not forced to spend your hours wasting the time away on your expensive holiday sat using orange's gprs services in france (although orange are owned by france and so you should not have to pay any premiums to access gprs as it is technically the same company you were accessing your GPRS through i would assume). When i am abroad i turn my phone OFF!
I had a huge bill one month from orange thanks to my GPRS but this was due to a fault with orange themselves. i was signed up to a package to allow me 4 MB of GPRS data per month and pay no extra, i once checked my bill and it was twice the amount it should i have been, i queried this, and they told me that my GPRS package had ended, i asked why and said i never asked for it to be ended or removed, they realised they had messed up, refunded me and i signed up to a GPRS package giving me back the 4MB of data that i had in the first place. I was happy, orange was happy and orange managed to make me sign up to a new GPRS data contract. Everyone won and orange now make more money off me than they used to.
I agree that their data prices are much too high, their website is one of the worst websites i have ever experienced while trying to find information (i have used the net for 10 years and i dread having to use the Orange website as it is so crap) but as has been said before, you are not forced to use their GPRS services, you didn't have to use it you chose to use it, you should be the one left paying the bill. I don't mean to poo poo your article but you are in the wrong on this one and if i was a judge i would totally side with Orange. Don't pay and take your CCJ with pride at least you have got your 15 minutes.
I, too, have fallen victim to exorbitant data chares whilst roaming...and in my humble opinion, despite raging profusely at the time, the only person I can blame is myself.
Granted, I work in the mobile industry and therefore have less excuse than most to be surprised by a lack of "ethical" business practice from mobile operators. However, my reaction on opening that bill (coincidentally also from Orange!) sums up my response to Mr Steare:
1. At first, I was shocked and surprised at the actual rate charged. This lasted long enough for me to call Orange and rant at the rep about the blatant rip-off that I felt I was being subjected to.
2. Even before I put down the phone, it dawned on me that whilst I, like Mr Steare, ASSUMED that the charges would be "reasonable", since I hadn't actually checked, I didn't have a leg to stand on.
That's really all there is to it. I will never make the same mistake again, and I doubt Mr Steare will either.
I would say bite the bullet, drop the principle, and pay the bill. Your case is doomed to failure, if not for the implications it would have on the law of contract were you to succeed. Apart from anything else, you must realise that Orange might have ripped you off (in fact they certainly have!) but it is simply naive to be so heavily reliant on the principle of trust where corporate ethics are concerned.
I'm inclined to agree with the "sadder but wiser" camp. My usual monthly £60 bill for Feb 06 was over £700, simply because I forgot to reset Orange's pesky little data counter to zero on the right day. I went over my 400MB limit by mistake and - despite my best efforts to dispute it - have only ended up with an interest-free payment plan over the next ten months. It's ridiculous that Orange claim to know what data I have used on a particular day, without being able to pass that information on to me. I doubt whether anyone will have any luck pursuing their claims, but I wish you luck and PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF YOU SUCCEED!
To be quite honest, uness you have some real reason why you will need GPRS abroad, my advice is not to use it. If you plan to go abroad make sure you CHECK THE CHARGES FIRST. If you find that you need GPRS abroad but can't afford it, if you are on Orange and are going to France, buy an Orange France SIM card and have them set your phone up with the French GPRS settings. Most phones are capable of saving more than one set of GPRS settings, so when you come back to England, you will be able to re-insert your English Orange SIM and revert back to the origina GPRS settings.
Found this when looking for the 'anonymous managing director of Orange to submit my compalint on data roaming to. ( I have been advised that the route to complain is to send a fax to an anonymous office.)
My issue is a £700 bill for trying and failing to send one email in Italy.
The response so far, well the computer says it was connected and bytes were sent'. Sounds distrubingly like Little britain.
Not fit for purpose isd my angle. how can they charge for such an unstisfactory service.
Where am I to find you over these years, and how are you old friend?
Went to Spain for 10 Days, used my Orange Icon 2 Mobile broad band connection to check emails every day and my girlfriend also logged into facebook a couple of times, I was expecting to pay a bit extra for this, I mean how cool is using your laptop by the pool, but £496!!!! they are having a laugh!!
I rang to complain and they said the charges are listed on their website, god I wish I had looked, I didn't expect them to rip me off, they said thay are just charging me what the Spainish mobile firms charged them, WELL WHAT ABOUT LOOKING AFTER YOUR CUSTOMERS ORANGE?
I am tempted to cancel my Direct Debot and take this further, its put me off Orange for good, I have been with them for 9 years!
Alan Pinchard
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Any problems with orange ring ofcom on the numbers below
Monday-Friday between 09:00 and 17:00.
Our phone number is 020 7981 3040 or 0300 123 3333
I recently lost a phone and someone had made £500+ of international calls before I reported it stolen which I am now apparently liable for. My main complaint was that these types of ridculas high charges are allowed to go onto a phone unchecked. A simple phone call to check account details/password after £100 would have more than done the job as I'm sure it would with the majority of over charging cases.
Please ring ofcom to complain as the more complaints they get the more likely they are to do something.
Also as a handy note if you write to Orange to complain they must reply within 11 weeks if the response is unsatisfactory or there is no response then you can take up the complaint with the CISAS Ombudsman their number is 02075203827. However this can only be done for the 11 week or unsatisfactory response or if you are in deadlock with orange.
Vodafone is no better - I have a Vodafone "Pay As You Go" data card which I used to browse (not download!) over a couple of days in August, the actual amount of data transferred being around 40Mb. Big mistake! Their tariff, which they admit "must be an old one", cost £2/Mb, the total bill for two days of browsing being over £90 - TWO THOUSAND times more expensive than the current rate from 3 (for example).
The best they could offer when I rang to cancel the account was £50 off a 12-month subscription to their mobile broadband service - but I was never able to take up the offer, as I couldn't get any response by e-mail from the business sales adviser for whom I had contact details, their business broadband Web site was down more than it was up (and I couldn't process the discount there anyway), and after over 10 minutes waiting in a queue on their IVR phone system, I gave up.
"Customer service", it ain't... :-(
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Simply looking at a website or even asked Orange staff members about the charges does not always help.
My girlfriend travels to Turkey a lot and wished to use her mobile there. After several discussions with different Orange representatives, all of whom suggested different charges for Turkey, we finally got what seemed to be a sensible quote. Orange classes Turkey as a member of their “Europe 2″ region. Lets not get into a discussion as to the geographical knowledge of Orange, the fact of the matter is they class Turkey as Europe 2. As such, it would seem to make sense that it would be covered by their European Traveler bundle. Not so! However, this fact confuses not just customers but staff members as well.
So, even though we were quoted 27.4 pence per minute for Turkish calls, we were actually charged almost a pound a minute, with a resulting 600 pound bill for two months. OK – I know mistakes happen, so we called up our helpful Orange call center to set the record straight. The call finished up with a very rude manager who observed that we had a number of plan changes but couldn’t understand why there might be confusion. He finished by explaining that his manger would say the same as him and there was no dispute process. My next call is to my lawyer to see if he thinks there is a dispute process that can be employed here.
Silly Orange. Other (admittedly US) mobile companies resolve these disputes in a smart way. By Orange taking this path, a simple gesture would have saved them losing two mobile accounts and a broadband account, and possibly another case of arbitration.
So – beware Orange’s geographical mistakes, and incredible arrogance!
I have the same problem with Orange, by bill has come to £600 so far, and still under unbilled usage, and has been climbing everyday, I was in Dubai for 9 days...
They called me 12 hours after I landed and asked for payment or cut off my line...
I did not recieve one text or warning from them during the 9 days I was away...any decent company would do that...
alot of stories here but not many outcomes...has anyone successfully got the bill reduced or anything? please contact me on riprop@hotmail.com and let me know/ any advice you have