RealNetworks has criticised Microsoft for failing to provide a fully functional version of Windows that is unbundled from its media player, twelve months after the European Commission (EC) ruled that Microsoft was stifling competition in the market for media player software.
Back in March 2004 the EC had demanded that Microsoft produce a new version of its operating system that is not bundled with Windows Media Player and that this version must not be made "less attractive" to PC manufacturers through any commercial, technological or contractual terms.
David Stewart, the deputy general counsel for RealNetworks, told ZDNet UK on Wednesday that RealNetworks believes that Microsoft is deliberately delaying providing an unbundled version of Windows.
"One year after the Commission's historic decision, Microsoft is still flouting the law," said Stewart. "[Microsoft] is still refusing to release an unbundled Windows that complies with the decision, choosing instead to play games with the Commission and to denigrate the operating system it has been ordered to release. The longer Microsoft drags its feet, the longer it denies European consumers the full benefits of competition, innovation and choice."
Stewart had previously told The New York Times that Microsoft has deleted various registry entries in Windows, which means that rival media players cannot work with other applications such as Word documents and some Web sites. This technical problem means that the unbundled version of Windows is likely to be less attractive to PC manufacturers, which would contravene the EC ruling.
Stewart claims it is possible to remove Windows Media Player from the operating system without any side effects. "Last year, RealNetworks provided independent verification that Microsoft could separate Windows from Windows Media Player to develop the fully functioning, unbundled operating system required by the Commission," said Stewart.
A Microsoft spokesman confirmed on Wednesday that it was aware of this issue.
"The point on the registry entries has been raised as part of our ongoing dialog with the commission," said the spokesman, who insisted that Microsoft has merely complied with the EC's request to delete 186 Windows Media Player files from Windows.
"We haven't done anything else apart from removing the 186 files," said the spokesman. "By taking these out it has certain effects."
Last week the EC rejected Microsoft's proposed server interoperability licence — another consequence of the antitrust case — saying that it contained a number of serious flaws including unjustifiably high royalty fees and the exclusion of open source vendors.
Talkback
If Microsoft won't comply with the laws of the land then ban them. Just get rid of them. They play by our rules or they don't play at all. Period. They've had their chance. I think the EC would be perfectly justified in doing this.
It really makes me mad when companies flout the law and no punishment is dished out.
Realnetworks (RealPlayer) cries foul !!
What a cheek.
I have only used realplayer once & never again.The program takes over (literally) all your media options & embeds itself deep within the registry.If consumers believe that this program (realplayer) is better than Windows Media Player,then they are free to use it.
Let realplayer be sold/downloaded & used on its own merits,let people choose which media player they want to have on their computers.
If I did not want to use Windows Media Player I have the option NOT to use it.That's fair play.
Realnetworks taking Microsoft to court is not fair play.I fail to see the logic in "making" Microsoft remove their media player in favour of any other (especially realplayer).
If I want something,I buy it and use it.
I do not want realplayer and will not buy it or use it.
Microsoft are fined millions and realnetworks are crying foul !
What a cheek !!
Real and Microsoft are just as bad as each other but even then Real has a point in that Microsoft are still flouting the law.
Not that I use either mind.
It is much easier to understand all this if you read the whole
EU "paper" on MS.
http://www.worldlii.org/eu/cases/ECComm/2004/1.html
Real Player crying foul !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hypocrites & worse!
I also have only ever downloades Real Player once. Only to find that it did all the unpleasant tricks listed by a previous poster. Plus having some even nastier tricks incorporated in the download. Namely, some particularly nasty variants of 'spyware' which are usually without the users knowledge.
The only way available at that time for ridding oneself of Real Player & its obnoxious 'piggy backing' spyware was a complete re-format & re-load of Windows.
The spyware issues are well documented on the internet. Just type "Real Player"+spyware or even better "Real Player sucks", into your chosen search engine.............& watch!
I have had contact with the BBC & some at that organisation are aware of the downside of Real Player & they are now starting to give a choice of 'players' on their otherwise mainly excellent websites.
Here's an idea, LEAVE MICROSOFT ALONE. Tell RealNetworks to go develop their OWN operating system so they can have their crappy media player bundled with it. It's Microsoft's operating system, and their software, if they choose to include windows media player with it, then so be it. If you don't like it, uninstall windows media player and get something else or just don't use it. RealNetworks is just crying because they're software is junk, it's slow, laggy, and doesn't know how to properly utilize the CPU.
Here we go again. RealPlayer was better, did better, etc. Then Microsoft thought: good idea, let's do that as well by forcing everyone our version down their throat. And the investors walked away from RealPlayer leaving them with lower PR and RD budgets. Gee, what would happen next?
Same story as NetScape and IE, Novell and Windows, WordPerfect and Word, etc..
There's a lesson to be learned here. If you have a good idea then don't make it Windows compatible. Go Open Source instead or else join the crowd of companies ripped off and stepped on by Microsoft. Without anybody left to steal from Microsoft will have to show how innovative they really are.
Are we expected to believe that Arthur B.(Technical Specialist) REALly knows what he is talking about.
Nobody on this earth, who uses Windows, HAS to use the Microsoft Media Player.
Media Player within Windows is NOT being "shoved down the throats of consumers". The consumer is free to pick and choose whichever Media Player they WANT to use.
Come on, Arthur B. Technical Specialist, use the brain you have and make an informed decision.
It's called choice !
Something real networks don't supply with their (spyware ) riddled piece of programming.
Media Player files play on my portable mp3 player. Real Player files do not. It's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black...
Stewart.
For one, choice would be not having to pay the Microsoft tax. Choice would be the possibility to completely de-install (not just the icons) whatever application that somehow got installed on your computer. Choice would be to have competitive applications available as a recommened update/upgrade on windowsupdate. Choice would be to download Windows (and others) security patches from your ISP website.
But what do I know? I remember the time where Windows could be removed from your computer and you could still get all your work done. And the time where Internet Explorer could be deleted in total from your PC as well without problems. I still remember choice. Real, true choice. Do you?
Perhaps not. Already some Media Player support files are required for some system tasks. That wasn't the case before. So Media Player is becoming less optional. That also wasn't the case before. Next month? Who knows but if the history of Internet Explorer teached us anything then Media Player will get less optional until the competition is driven out of the market and with that: choice.
Oh, and on the spyware issue. Windows has "phone home" functionality build in since WIndows 95. And it reports more then you think.
Arthur,
Thanks for your comments although I have to say I disagree with them all, in their entirety.
They are also off topic.
I am able to uninstall any application from my computer.
If you cannot do the same, then you should not be a "Technical Specialist", although I am beginning to wonder what it is ,exactly, you specialise in.
The Windows Update site is there for a reason. Hence the name !
Windows users go there for updates & patches.Why should they go anywhere else !
I stand by what I have said previously.
Windows is my "chosen" operating system.
If I choose to use another media player other than the one supplied by Microsoft then I will.
However, I cannot see that happening.But the choice is available to all. And yes , I do remember W'95 & the times you mention.
I do not like real player (for many reasons) but I could still use it (or any other) on the Windows platform if I chose to.
That would be my "choice".Which is what this post is supposed to be all about.
Real Networks are up the proverbial creek without a boat, much less a paddle.
Real Networks are not good enough to get new customers & they are hanging on for dear life to keep the customers they do have.
Real Networks are losing advertising revenue by the day (in vast amounts of money) which, if you did your research you would know.
You say " Choice would be to have competitive applications available as a recommened update/upgrade on windowsupdate."
What a stupid idea. (Nothing personal).
Do Tesco sell Asda products? Do Harrods sell Woolworth products? Do Canon sell Epson products.? Wake up , for goodness sake.
I am fully aware that Windows Media Player " phones home " & I understand why.
Do you know why Real Player "phones home ". I doubt it , but as you say "What do you know".
Here's a thought.........Use Linux. You will find the Windows to Linux Migration Kit at http://www.linux.org/
Stewart, you appear to missing several key pieces of information. That's fair enough though - you're an accountant, not a technical specialist. Let me enlighten you.
Microsoft have been convicted of using anticompetitive tactics and having an illegal monopoly. That removes from them several rights they would usually have, including having the "option" to bundle media player with Windows.
Let's take your points one by one:
"I am able to uninstall any application from my computer."
No, you're not. Not if you want to continue using Windows, and many people do because they've learnt it and they know it. You show me a Windows XP computer you've uninstalled Internet Explorer from and I'll show you where the fully working copy still sits.
"If I choose to use another media player other than the one supplied by Microsoft then I will."
But you won't, because you've already got the Microsoft one, right? Why should you spend time on the internet looking for and downloading a media player when you've already got one?
The problem is though, if every Windows user has Microsoft's media player, then whose media format do you think every music download service will encode their stuff in? Except now all the music you've bought is in MS format, you CAN'T use Real Player for it because it's digitally encoded only to work with media player. Suddenly you're locked in to Windows for ever. Do you like the sound of that? Just because they do no wrong now (in your eyes) doesn't mean it will be that way for ever. Flexbility, my friend, is power! You're the accountant. You tell me how much financial power Microsoft will gain when all music is delivered using their software?
This is the reason why "Real Networks are up the proverbial creek without a boat, much less a paddle." It's the reason why "Real Networks are losing advertising revenue by the day (in vast amounts of money) which, if you did your research you would know."
It's the same reason why Netscape went from being a multi-billion dollar darling of Silicon Valley to being an embarrassing subsidiary of AOL. It's not that their software wasn't good enough to compete, or that they couldn't get the sales. It's just that when people installed Windows 98, it already had Internet Explorer on. And that was good enough for most people who, had they realised they had the choice, would probably have got the market leader product (Netscape Navigator) at the time.
"Here's a thought.........Use Linux. You will find the Windows to Linux Migration Kit at http://www.linux.org/" but the fact remains that there are still a lot of applications that have no equivalent on Linux, making it impossible to use for some people. For the time being, at least, people have to use Windows.
Personally, my next computer will be a Mac.
Steve, it may appear to you that I am "missing several key pieces of information" however I assure you I am not.
The current topic of discussion , as I understand it , is the fact that Realnetworks are still complaining. You seem to have forgotten that ,along with Arthur B.
However , to your unqualified points , the answers are as follows:
1) Yes , I am able to uninstall any application from my computer.
If you are not , then you should not be an IT developer.
2) Why should I not spend time on the internet looking at other media players.
I have , over the years , done just that (using that mind boggling concept called choice) and not found one to equal Windows Media Player.
Had I found what I considered to be a better media player then I would be using it now.
Of course , this is only my opinion and my choice.
It is probably only coincidence that millions of people agree with me as far as Windows Media Player is concerned.
That said , the rest of your reasoning is totally irrelevant with the exception of your statement that " Flexibility, my friend , is power ! "
It is not , it never has been and never will be.You know that , I know that and everyone reading this post knows that.
Why do you think I am an Accountant and not an IT Developer.
3) Netscape (navigator) fall in to the same category as realnetworks. Their software (for whatever reason ) did not sell. Nothing personal , but this is business and in case you hadn't noticed , it's a harsh world out there.
The two aforementioned companies have discovered this to their cost and , quite frankly , deserved all they got.
As far as Linux is concerned I have to admit (partial) defeat.
The people I have spoken with seem to agree with you.
I wish you luck with your Mac. I am told they are very good.
As for me , I will be staying with what I consider to be a superb OS.
Microsoft Windows with Microsoft Media Player.
Out of choice !
Hopefully , this discussion will now return to the original topic.
Stewart,
Far from being off-topic, this discussion is about a lot of the background of this current case. We've been here before, in the Internet Explorer vs Netscape Navigator instance, so it is correct and relevant to look back at what happened there and see if we can learn lessons from it that may relate to this case.
So, to go back over your points.
1) I am an IT developer and I'm telling you categorically that it is not possible to uninstall Internet Explorer from Windows 98, ME, 2000, XP, or 2003. I would like to invite you to try this - uninstall it in the normal way, then run Windows Update, or go into Windows Explorer and type in a web URL. Look what pops up! The reason is, Windows Explorer and Internet Explorer are now essentially the same thing. Microsoft tied them together deliberately to sidestep antitrust legal proceedings in the US that would have forced them to sell Windows without IE. In any case, this point is irrelevant so let's leave it there.
2) Of course you SHOULD look for other media players. The point I'm making is that most people won't look for them. Why should they when they already have one? If you've looked at other players and you prefer the Microsoft one, fair enough. Personally I find Quicktime works better for me, but different strokes....
"It is probably only coincidence that millions of people agree with me as far as Windows Media Player is concerned."
- or it could possibly be the fact that millions of people had it installed along with Windows in the first place, whether they 'chose' it or not? Either way, how can we know, because millions of people have never thought about going to competitors? This, of course leaves Microsoft in a fantastically strong position to go after the entire media market, as I outlined in my previous talkback.
And actually flexibility IS power. If I'm thinking of upgrading my system and go to Microsoft saying, "well, if I wanted I could move to Linux/Mac at the drop of a hat", they'll fall over themselves to try and persuade me to install Windows. I'm flexible, but Microsoft want me to be locked in.
In the case of RealNetworks, if I buy my music from them, I can get a version of Real Player for Windows, Mac, Linux, even my mobile phone! Whereas if I'm buying WMA encoded tunes, I can only ever play them on Windows. Buying RealNetworks tunes gives me more flexibility than buying WMA tunes. Ideally of course, tunes would be sold using an Open DRM system that all media players support and the world would be a better place.
3) You say the companies deserved what they got. Why, exactly, did they deserve this? Did Netscape deserve it because they produced a brilliant piece of software, far better than their competitors and thus achieved a 80%+ share of the market? Do you think they *deserved* to be ousted by an inferior (at the time), buggy and insecure Internet Explorer because Microsoft happened to own the operating system everyone used, and thus could push IE on everyone with very little effort?
Now the same thing is happening to Real Networks. They pioneered the entire concept of streaming media over the internet. They were the first, and produced a very good product that everybody used. Now we're seeing the same thing happen as with Netscape. Everyone has Windows Media Player, because it comes with Windows, so as a web developer, what do you release your media in? Suddenly RealNetworks themselves become irrelevant, because noone's producing RealMedia files anymore. Microsoft have once again illegally used their Windows monopoly to force dominance of another market they previously barely had a foothold in.
Steve,
You think it is correct and relevant. Now that really is amusing.
1) Purely and simply in an attempt to stop you spouting any more absolute rubbish I have been using another browser for the past 30 minutes or so.
.
The point I want to make is that IE 6 was first uninstalled.
Completely.
There were no remnants in the registry or anywhere else.
If you choose to believe otherwise , fair enough. That's your choice!
2) How do you KNOW that most people do not look around the Internet for alternative media players.
The plain fact is you do not know.
I believe most computer users are not stupid and do look around.
Dealing with facts and figures every day I tend to let the figures speak for themselves.
It is a well documented fact that more people use Windows Media Player than any other media player in the world today.
Accept it.
Live with it.
I am right and you are wrong.
Flexibility is power.
Let me see.
Oh yes , I have already answered that one but to reiterate " It is not , it never has been and never will be.You know that , I know that and everyone reading this post knows that.
Why do you think I am an Accountant and not an IT Developer."
3) Netscape deserved all they got.
As you say their software was good and showed signs of getting better and possibly being the best.
Unfortunately for them they seemed to lose the plot.
Their marketing strategy was all over the place, they became complacent in their attitude and that complacency reflected in their product.
Product sales not only fell , they came down to earth without a 'chute.
Because of their complacency , they paid the ultimate price and , as I have already said , it was deserved.
I am of the opinion that not even AOL can help them now.
4) Oh, there isn't one.
Well , I will leave you to dwell on what I have written and when you have finished that why don't you take a look at Real Networks balance sheet (figures to you) for 2003/2004.
That should keep you busy for a week or so.
I always like to think that I can have a serious discussion / debate with someone without resorting to personalities.
Not so in your case.
I get the impression that you think of people (and probably treat them ) in much the same way that you yourself would act which , when added to your condescending manner , is a very disconcerting thought.
You seem to be taking the " closed mind " to the next level.
One would be forgiven for thinking you worked for Real Networks.
A Real Alternative.
For those of you out there who want to listen / watch RealNetworks files WITHOUT using real player & the spyware that comes with it , download Real Alternative.
It uses Windows Media Player (included in the download) to play the files & all the necessary codecs.
It works !
http://www.afterdawn.com/software/video_software/video_players/real_alternative.cfm
Stewart
Stewart, people who don't learn from their previous mistakes are bound to repeat them.
You state that you can totally remove Internet Explorer 6 from your computer without problems. However, the vendor of that software, Microsoft, testified in court that that is impossible without messing things seriously up.
You state that NetScape and RealNetworks deserve what they got yet they didn't get convicted for their business behaviour like Microsoft did. It was Microsoft who got convicted for abusing their monopoly to crush rivals and drive investors away from its competitors. Microsoft doesn't compete. They simply shut down the air supply of their competitors in ways that are prohibited by law.
The above may all sound like superior and most innovative behaviour to you but it's exactly the opposite. And it results in exactly the opposite. To be exact: less quality, less security, less choice and all that at a premium price. Perhaps an acoountant's dream but not a consumer dream. Certainly not an economical dream because continues overpricing is bound to take a turn for the worse sooner or later.
By comparison. You seem to fancy Olympic sports like the old Romans used to have. The winner is the last one standing. Rules are for the weak. However, todays Olympics have different rules. If you can only win by killing the other guy then you're not a champion. You're a bully. A cheater. And most certainly not a sportsman who should be admired for his achievements. Because everyone would know the outcome if such a "sportman" would be allowed to continue. It would be just a matter of time before all competition gets gunned down and that would be the end of that sport. Soon followed by whatever next sport that "sportsman" decided to "participate" in.
For a sport to be able to reach the next level there needs to be a level playing field with enough competitors competing each other. Some won't have what it takes and they go home as losers. But some won't be able to play within the given set of rules and they are sent of the field.
What RealNetworks is "crying" about is that there opponent cheated, blackmailed, bullied and did practicaly everything in the dirty handbook and not their opponent but they get send of the field.
If this was soccer then the entire nation would be up in arms. But then, if this was soccer then most would believe that they are the one and only expert. Despite lack of years of education, experience, training, insight and understanding in that particular field of expertize.
Wouldn't you agree, Stewart?
Arthur,
Yes , I am aware of the litigation comments that were made.
Just one (of many ) ways to remove IE , taken from the web , for your perusal.
Yes , it does work.
Now please give it up. This is one argument you (or Steve J)are not going to win.
"Steps:
1. In order to remove Internet Explorer from Windows XP without the Windows File Protection kicking in and restoring the files I am trying to delete, I booted into Windows 98 by selecting Windows 98 from the boot menu.
2. Once Windows 98 was booted I used windows explorer to browse to the drive where I installed Windows XP. In my case I double click the E: drive in Windows explorer, then Program Files, then Internet Explorer.
3. Select all the files in the directory Internet Explorer and delete them.
4. Reboot the computer into Windows XP.
5. Internet Explorer will be gone."
Yes , I did say that I am of the opinion that Netscape and RealNetworks got what they deserved. I also explained why I made that comment and I see no reason to justify that comment yet again.
Your comparison with " Olympic Sports " has me completely baffled.
However , if it is comparisons you want, let us try something a little more obscure but important nevertheless.
Mercedes. (as an example only)
Mercedes manufacture cars , vans , trucks etc.
Every new car , van , truck that Mercedes sell comes complete with a built in radio/stereo/cd player, as with most other vehicles.
Ostensibly made by themselves.
I don't hear Sony , Panasonic , JVC (or any other media application manufacturer) crying foul.
But these are Companies who realise they are in a very competitive market and will endeavour to make their product better.
When the Mercedes contract comes up for renewal they will want to be in with a (real) chance of winning.
If they do not they can always run to the EU Commission and complain. I think not.
It is quite a simple analogy (Similarity in some respects between things that are otherwise dissimilar) to understand.
Microsoft manufacture Windows and "bundle" their own type of Media Player.
Mercedes manufacture vehicles and "bundle" their own type of Media player.
Once the vehicle is purchased the owner is perfectly free to change said media player.
The same applies to people who purchase the Windows OS with Media Player.
If they do not like it they are free to use another.
Whilst on this topic of comparisons there are other points to make.
How far will the EU Commission go?
If they (EU Commission) receive complaints from manufacturers of other programs not dissimilar to :
Windows Back Up, System Restore , Paint , Calculator , NotePad , Movie Maker , Narrator , On Screen Keyboard , Sound recorder , Character Map, Disk Defragmenter , Security Centre , WordPad , Zip Utility, is it sensible to presume that they (EU Commission) having received a complaint will order Microsoft to remove it (any of the preceeding applications) from the Windows OS ?
That , it would appear , is something you agree with. I do not.
Microsoft is not stifling competition , it is creating competition.
If companies realise they have to produce something better , they will , because they will have to in order to stay in the "market place".
And , contrary to popular belief , there are many companies out there who do.
Netscape and RealNetworks had their chance and failed. You will not see the like of RealNetworks again and that can only be a good thing.
You manufacture and market a better Media Player than the one "bundled" with Windows and I will use it.
In my opinion the EU Commission has set a very dangerous precedent with far reaching implications and may well live to regret their judjment.
Stuart S James is a complete and utter idiot! Why are people wasting their time talking to this bufoon - he clearly does not understand anything about the facts of this case, the market, anti0trust laws, windows media player OR I=nternet explorer for that matter.
What an absolute clown. Stuart, my advice to you is to carry on using windows media player as you can continue to be tracked by microsoft (and their buddies in the FBI) downloading porn every day and night!
Now get back to your number crunching and leave the world of IT to IT professionals to comment on. TWIT!
STEWART S JAMES
Accountant (& still proud of it )
This man will NEVER do a job for me.
It really IS:
<a complete and utter idiot!
< Why are people wasting their time talking to this <bufoon - he clearly does not understand anything <about the facts of this case, the market, anti-trust <laws, windows media player OR Internet explorer <for that matter.
The man really thinks he removes IE if he removes just one directory in windows?
He is talking of booting win98 en removing files in xp (normally, win98 with fat32 can't even see a ntfs partition, whoehaa...)
By the way: we were talking about M$ software and not about a logical system,...
WOW ! Now we have comments from "IT Technicians" and a "Mechanical Engineer".
Something I said must have struck a nerve.
Before I go any further those of you who believe that IE cannot be removed please use this link http://nuhi.msfn.org/nlite.html .If you do not understand the process contact the program developer.Not me !
A quote from the web site "nLite is a GUI for permanent Windows component removal by your choice."
I am so pleased he used the word "choice".
Pascal Van de Vyver (Belgium) is quite correct.
He will never secure my professional services.
He cannot afford me. Nor those of a junior member of my team.
I insist my Company pick our clients very carefully and (judging from his comments thus far) I doubt he would "make the grade".
However ,
I notice that neither Tomas Alanov or Pascal Van de Vyver did not make any comments (with the exception of character assassination) with regard to the other points I raised.
Although Tomas Alanov did say "Now get back to your number crunching and leave the world of IT to IT professionals to comment on. TWIT!"
It appears "TWIT" is the best this particular IT professional can do.
Would that be IT with or without the preceeding TW.
And just for Pascal a quote from TalkBack.
"Even when the EC and Microsoft resolve the problems in the unbundled version of Windows, PC vendors are expecting little consumer demand for the product. The EC does not plan to take any action to persuade PC vendors to use the software after HP and Dell expressed disinterest in the unbundled version of Windows."
And
"Dell said on Monday it has no plans to sell desktop or notebook computers in Europe without Windows Media Player. "The current offering [version of Windows] satisfies our requirements," said a Dell spokesman."
"HP told Wall Street Journal Europe that it will offer both versions of Windows in Europe but doesn't expect many customers to opt for the version without the media player."
That in itself must tell you something , Pascal.
We all know that , of the original complainants , only realnetworks are left. They stand alone.
As I write they (Microsoft and RealNetworks) are all round a table discussing payoffs.
Back to money again. Isn't it terrible Pascal !
If you have read the basics of the anti trust case, you would find that Microsoft's primary defence was 'You can't remove Internet Explorer or Media Player it is impossible, doing so make Windows unworkable."
It's nice to know that you have found a way to successfully achieve what Microsoft said was impossible. Perhaps you should Microsoft and the EU / Anti Trust Commission how this can be done.
Re: Alternative Media Player and Browsers.
I'm no great fan of either Windows Media player or Real player for that matter either. Unfortunately I have not found a Media player that can play every Music / Video there is. However I have found the next best thing... VLC player will play about 95% +, To my knowledge MS Media player doesn't support every format either.
I strongly recommend you check it out. http://www.videolan.org/ VLC 6.7mb versus MS Media Player 15mb + well we don't really know because it only installs online, no you can't download it and take with you to install the latest version offline across several machines. What if I don't want to go online or only have a dial up connection. Oh I believe this is the case also with MS Internet Explorer too. Superior Products hmmm ... I don't agree. As for a browser I recommend you give Firefox a try. Decent Browser, built in pop blocker, built in anti spyware, very secure (no major security alerts every other day and half a dozen patches every month), Not forced to MSN search and Hotmail, Tabbed browsing just to mention a few features. Oh and one last thing it works with ALL versions of windows and most other OS too.
Don't take my word for it check them out yourself, all I'm suggesting like most other people is people should open their eyes and be allowed to. But if your happy with IE and MP that are bundled with Windows, then good for you.
Thanks for the info Thomas.
At least what you say makes common sense.
I cannot recall who first mentioned Internet Explorer & its removal but I am assured that the program does work as advertised at http://nuhi.msfn.org/nlite.html (nLite).
However , that is a different matter.
I am trying Firefox as I write and will give it an unbiased tryout.
As for Media Player , you seem to be the only person to come up with a sensible alternative ( http://www.videolan.org/ VLC ) which I will try this weekend.
Your comment " all I'm suggesting like most other people is people should open their eyes and be allowed to" is the very crux of the matter & this particular discussion.
As mentioned previously , it is called choice.
Some people believe they do not have it.
I do.
Stewart
STEWART
Glad this makes senses now to take this one step further. Quite a lot of people are technophobe (I am not trying to knock anyone or imply anything).
Now bearing this in mind if IE and MP plus MSN & Hotmail are shoved in you face at every opportunity, and you aren't computer literate, you are going to think 'oh this is handy' and never realise there is other products out there.
Education is one thing, but if these products weren't bundled and marketed by MS with windows this would create a level playing field and force people to explore alternatives. Only then could companies claim their product is more popular and superior.
Let us know how you find Firefox and VLC.
If the're rubish say so and why.
But if the're better than anything MS has to offer, then join the campain to unbundle windows and promote free choice. Also educate people to allways to seek alternative solutions and weigh them up insted of settling on the first thing they see.
Thomas, I do have to admit to agreeing with you to a certain degree.
I think most people who use computers do know that other programs are available but , as you say there is the possibility of them thinking "oh this is handy" consequently using the programs that are first available to them.
In this particular case , all the programs that are bundled with the Microsoft OS.
I cast my mind back to when I first started using computers (a fair few years ago now) and I don't recall anyone telling me that there were alternatives (ie to media player) available.
However , I did find out just through looking around the internet & I did find the programs (other media players) and I do feel that others would do the same.
I was using a "slow" connection for years so I would like to think that the reason (for others not looking around) is not that.
The blame (in my opinion) cannot be put at the feet of Microsoft every time.
Microsoft do have a good product & market it very well , at the same time making an awful lot of money.
But that is the nature of business , to make a profit.
Here is a question for you :
Are you saying , in general , that companies should not "bundle" their own products within their products, as Microsoft does, whether it be computer oriented or not ?
Firefox is performing very well & I am pleased so far.
I would have to describe VLC as being as good as Windows Media Player without the GUI , and I thank you for the introduction.
Stuart - you are an idiot. The 'points' you claim to have 'raised' have been addressed numerous times and yet you insist and ranting on about how Real and Netscape deserved to be ILLEGALLY pushed out of the market.
It is not an EU vs USA issue either since Microsoft are convicted monopolists in a US COURT.
The bottom line is you don't have a bloody clue what youa re talking about! There is nothing left to discuss boy! Go away and leave IT to IT professionals!
You simply cannot make a logical and rational argument, nor can you listen to one!
MOST PEOPLE do not have the choice - since MOST PEOPLE (I actually carried out a survey of this over the last few days by calling a large number of my customers) do not know how to remove WMP and install a different media player. Most people do not have a clue about how to use an alternative browser.
Just because you seem to have so much time on your hands whilst downloading porn from the internet (no doubt the cause of your consternation with Real Media Player) you have obviously picked up the basics on how to 'remove IE'!
Your comment (or so called analogy) on Mercedes and in car stereos was yet another example of your naivete on the subject!
Mercedes do not manufacturer a car stereo - they cut a deal with a manufacturer of such products to supply them for their cars and in some cases some car manufacturers even have them rebadged 'ford' or 'chrysler' or whatever. It is not similar to the VIOLATIONS OF ANTI-TRUST LAWS by Microsoft.
Yes, those who like to download porn hate Real media player as it leaves traces of everything you play - no dou bt the source of your anger at Real who make an excellent product and are being ILLEGALLY pushed out of the market by the microsoft bullies!
Windows media player is based in buggy software and the only advantage it has is that for those (such as yourself) who like to download porn it is easier to hide that!
Enough said!
Tomas Alanov
yes there are typographical errors in the two posts above!
Oh dear , I do believe the poor lad is upset.
Stewart,
Let's put your IE removal statements to the test.
Here's a link that explains it somewhat nicely: http://www.vorck.com/remove-ie.html
Can this totally remove IE? No, that's the claim but on that website you can also find: "So, how do we deal with IE.INF? Well, my solution was to separate out what the OS truly needs, and put it into a different INF file.". So it seems the OS truly needs some IE stuff.
Meaning that with a lot of effort and technical know-how one can remove most parts of IE but not the core of IE. To then have to deal with a continues requirement to avoid all programs depanding on IE since every Microsoft related developer handbook will simply assume that IE must be available.
Not a task most will be able to handle. Switching to a different OS would be simpler for most. In short, you can't completely remove IE.
Let's put your Mercedes example to the test as well.
Suppose 95% procent of the cars in the world are manufactured by Mercedes but have no car radio built in. Someone invents the car radio and in no time 80% of cars in the world have a car radio installed. Next thing Mercedes does is to build in their own car radio into every new car they sell AND they replace the car radio in every old Mercedes car for one of their own making free of charge. AND they make it so that more and more radio stations send out shows that only Mercedes car radio's understand right from the start.
Such tactics wouldn't be innovative. It's simply stealing a good idea and buying yourself a new market by means of abusing your existing market domination. And knowing that almost every investor out there will walk out of a deal that dropped from 95% to maybe 10% market share. And knowing then most users won't bother making an effort if what they already have "is good enough" (=is all they know and hear about). Thus quickly killing the competion and their resources needed to fight back with legal and PR means. Only a few would be able to fight back before bleeding dry on spendings and most of those would simply be bought off anyway should things turn out to get too close to a negative court ruling.
Scary thing being that this Mercedes example could work with fuel, roads, tires, car shops, whatever. But you can ask NetScape, Novell and dozens of other companies for real-life examples.
In short, Microsoft is anything but innovative. It's simply using its awsome powers to kill anything that doesn't fit in their plans (anymore).
And if the likes of RealNetworks, after such a treatment, have to resort to less desires business tactics (which seem to be OK if done by Microsoft) in order to survive and thus be able to bring this injustice to the courts (or hope for a decent pay-off) then suddenly they are the bad guys? They are not innovative enough?
If you want to talk about innovation then honestly ask yourself this: what possible motivation does Microsoft has to innovate? Most consumers will use or buy anything that Microsoft waves in front of them. Any competitor can be forced out of the market or at the very least hindered to the extreme. The world is filled with people who don't have a clue but think that they have a clue and thus ignore the warnings of those that really have a clue. And the world is filled with investors who will walk away from an investment once Microsoft says: we will do that to.
What's needed is that more and more people like Stewart start to listen and begin to open their eyes to the bigger picture. There's much more at stake here then just one company that's been foul played.
Arthur B.
First & foremost , although I do appreciate all your comments , let's get IE removal out of the way and the discussion, in general.
I did say that IE could be removed. I was referring to a program called nLite. If you are saying that this is not true then you must take it up with the program Author and not me. As far as I am aware it (nLite) does work.
Now onto "RealNetworks Crying Foul" which is the topic of this particular forum.
Putting all the examples to one side, if you were relatively new to computers & went to Download.com looking for a media player & came across the comments below , would you d'load / install / use real player?
Worst Unbelievably Bad
19-Feb-2005 12:03:30 AM Reviewer: gulysses3
Pros: None whatsoever
Cons: Requires Real networks special downloader. Who knows what it does? It hangs on my machine. Why not just download the program file like everyone else. I have wasted more time with Real Networks junky, buggy, problematic software. I'm done, developers and media producers, for God's sake please quit releasing media in Real Audio Format. Please!!!
Worst piece of computer-eating ***** i have EVER tryed ?%#*$";@?
25-Feb-2005 05:00:49 AM Reviewer: hebz
Cons: It is LOADED with ad-ware, and it's impossibel to get rid of
Worst Unbelievably Bad
19-Feb-2005 12:03:30 AM Reviewer: gulysses3
Pros: None whatsoever
Cons: Requires Real networks special downloader. Who knows what it does? It hangs on my machine. Why not just download the program file like everyone else. I have wasted more time with Real Networks junky, buggy, problematic software. I'm done, developers and media producers, for God's sake please quit releasing media in Real Audio Format. Please!!!
Just 3 of the user comments I found on Download.com. There are many more.
You will find more similar comments here:
http://www.download.com/RealPlayer/3640-2139_4-10255189.html?sb=3&v=0
Seriously , would you even try it ?
Stewart, I have RealPlayer installed on one of my PC's and its running just fine. I also managed to find all of the little buttons hidden in its menus that disable most of the built-in ad functionality.
As for the IE removal tools. Whatever. I gues you have your opinion and I have mine. Let others decide for themselves what they believe.
In my opinion the best IE removal tool is still a full blown OS replacement. And it saves a bundle in more then one way.
How does Alanov know !
Arthur, I don't doubt at all that RealPlayer will work well.
What I do doubt is the "adware" etc that it is loaded with & the people who , unlike yourself , do not know about......Yet !
I say "yet" as I understand that Microsoft will encompass the using of adware / spyware within RealPlayer during talks with the EU Commission.
With regard to IE , I agree with you entirely.
"Let others decide for themselves what they believe."
I have been using Firefox for a short while now & am very pleased with the way it runs.
I am a strong believer in choice, although some writers to this forum would
disagree.
Fair enough.
The minute I become dissatisfied (for whatever reason) with the Microsoft Media Player I shall use another.
One comment (which amused me) that Alanov made, and I quote:
" Windows media player is based in buggy software and the only advantage it has is that for those (such as yourself) who like to download porn it is easier to hide that! "
.......mmmmmmm , I did not know that.
But it does beg the question, how does Alanov know !
Stewart,
I also find choice important. Even think it's vital for innovation, quality and so on because without competition there's no need to improve. And without improvement one falls behind.
As for Microsoft versus RealNetworks. Microsoft should have learned by now that they shouldn't accuse someone of what they themselves do and have done many times over. Besides, that's not what the case is about.
PS: have you tried WinAmp yet? Linspire? etc etc
PPS: in case you're interested. Here's what RealNetworks themselves have to say about it:
http://www.realnetworks.com/company/privacy/topics.html
Arthur,
Many thanks for the comments & the link which I found very interesting.
I am aware that Microsoft Media Player "phones home" , however I was reasonably certain that Microsoft "say" they never access PII (personally Identifiable Information) which RealNetworks do, as they say in part of their
policy, listed below.
"We use this technology to access your personally identifiable information in accordance with the other sections of this privacy policy, and to compile aggregate data. This technology is used in our email messages that are delivered by a third party advertising service. This technology transfers your e-mail address to us so that we can associate your personally identifiable information with the elements (such as links, advertisements or graphics) that you click on a RealNetworks web page."
I am sure you will correct me if I am wrong but Microsoft (I thought) were stopped (in some legal process in the USA approx 2 years ago) from accessing/using/collating/storing/processing etc any personally identifiable information as far as their Media Player is concerned.
When the ruling was made I believe Microsoft completely changed its privacy policy as far as PII is concerned.
I may be wrong & will apologise if I am.
Winamp I have tried but Linspire is a new one to me & will give it a go.Thanks.
I Have used both over the last 4 Years or so and i think the Real networks Realplayer is the Best,I Have no offense with Mediaplayer,but if Microsoft could sell XP without a player they should if People want it,What they should do, Microsoft is let People have a choice ,They are winning anyway,you have to buy there Software so you can use your PC ,People should get off microsofts back and let them get the 64 bit drivers sorted out.
this thread is the best advertisement for a mac i ever saw.
thank god i have always had one at home. but then i have to go to work and deal with microsoft orifice and XP everyday. makes me cry sometimes, literally. intrusive unintuitive pieces of crap.
mind you, so is real networks stuff.
this thread is really pointless because better alternatives exist, despite M$'s near-monopoly.
get a mac, get your life back. unless you enjoy being a techno weenie.
Do you 2 have nothing better to do??
Because I am a PC and network engineer.
I routinely have to repair PCs for people like you, which contain the aforementioned traces of porn sites.
The stuff you find on accountants' computers!